Apple Becoming Synonymous With Petty

[Swagger]

I am not having a good "Apple" day today. I took my fifteen year old daughter to The Apple Store today to buy a 32GB iPod Touch. She was so happy all day awaiting our trip to The Apple Store.

This is what happened. We told the salesperson what we came for he left for a moment then appeared with the Touch. I thought to myself the case the iPod Touch was in looks kind of small to accommodate the fat wall charger that is usually shipped with iPods. I mentioned to the salesman oh Apple must have reduced the foot print of the wall charger. He informed me that there was no wall charger just a USB cord. I then said let me understand this correctly. I am getting ready to give Apple 399.99 (plus tax) for an iPod and Apple can't even include a probably less than a dollar (made in China) wall charger??? The very helpful salesman then told me I could purchase one for 29.99. I said may I have a moment to confer with my daughter.

I pulled my daughter to the side and asked her what she felt about the whole situation. She told me it was no big deal and she just wanted the iPod but she did think it was a bit crazy that one wasn't included. I said to her you might as well learn right now never ever want something so bad that you will go for anything to get it. Thirty dollars is not the issue for me I could have easily paid it. I just felt like I was being bent over and I wasn't going to stand for it.

I returned to the salesman and gave him the chance to give me a wall charger for free. He said he couldn't do it he had to follow store policy (which I understood he was just an employee). I thanked him for his help and told him Apple would not be getting our 399.99 dollars nor possibly anymore of my dollars and walked out. My daughter took it a lot better than I thought she would. She understands that I stand firm in what I believe in.

We talked on the way home and she said dad I never want another Apple product if they have to be so petty and take advantage of people. She said what about people who have less than us and have to save a long time to get their dream Apple product then Apple takes advantage of them. I told her that this is the world we now live in where greed has surpassed morals. She then said dad I hope I never become that greedy and take advantage of people just to build upon my own wealth. I turned and kissed her forehead told her I love her and that I was sure she would not become part of what's taking place all around us.

We got home and she went to her room. I later stopped into tell her her dinner was ready. I noticed she had taken down all her Apple "stuff". I silently said to myself that's my girl. Mark

[FlwrPwer]

No offense, but funny this is coming from you considering just a few weeks ago you were upset that apple was selling its products at walmart. Either they're high end or they're not.

Right now, they're too high for you...but a few weeks ago, you thought they were too high for Walmart and you didnt want people who shopped at walmart to have what you had.

[Swagger]

I'm not going to get into it with you in this thread also. Once again you have misread my writing. I didn't want to say this for fear of being called a snob but since you can't understand (once again) what I wrote. I will make it plain and simple just for you. Thirty dollars is nothing to me I could have paid it no problem. The moral of this story that you missed is first Apple's pettiness and second I felt Apple was just out to make an easy buck and I wasn't going for it!!!

What about the people that can't afford the extra thirty bucks. Everyone doesn't lug around a laptop just to charge an iPod. Hell if you have to do that you might as well just plug your headphones into your laptop access iTunes and bypass the iPod all together. That's what this is about standing on my principals not any freaking thirty dollars. Mark

P.S. I also want my daughter to understand that you must stand up for what you believe in. Also that just because you have money doesn't mean you have to just throw it away.

Other people may not say anything about all the free money they give companies for nothing but I do. I was taught by two ruthless Jewish businessmen and they taught me well.

I also DO NOT pay phone activation charges (I'm going to pay you to create a bill for myself???)

Unexplainable service or administrative fees

Restocking fees

Buy anything extra that I think should have came in the box in the first place.

And etc..

[FlwrPwer]

And once again, I didn't miss what you were saying. You seem to feel I'm reading impaired, and I'm most definitely not.

But my mom has an ipod touch, thats a few months old, and she didnt have to buy a wall charger. It came with the USB cable and charger that the iphone has.

do you think its possible the salesperson you were with didn't know what you meant?

[chris]

Apple is not the only company who continue to downsize included accessories. This happens across the board. While I understand your decision not to give them $400, I wouldn't stop purchasing Apple products because of it. If you did that, you'll find the list of companies growing.

[UFGator]

I disagree with everyone's posts above and completely agree with you. If we all stood up and said "SCREW YOU" to everyone who tried to nickel-and-dime us we could force companies to provide us more value at the expense of their bottom line and not ours. I also commend you on the lesson you are teaching your daughter. Let's not bring another mindless consumber into the world. I am surprised she took it so well though. Pretty special daughter you have there. Keep up the good work.

[chris]

I disagree with everyone's posts above and completely agree with you. If we all stood up and said "SCREW YOU" to everyone who tried to nickel-and-dime us we could force companies to provide us more value at the expense of their bottom line and not ours. I also commend you on the lesson you are teaching your daughter. Let's not bring another mindless consumber into the world. I am surprised she took it so well though. Pretty special daughter you have there. Keep up the good work.

I wasn't justifying what they do...just noting that it's happening with more and more companies looking to cut costs (ie. improve profit margins). If I thought the savings were being passed to the consumer, then it would be a good thing, but I doubt it.

[Swagger]

Apple is not the only company who continue to downsize included accessories. This happens across the board. While I understand your decision not to give them $400, I wouldn't stop purchasing Apple products because of it. If you did that, you'll find the list of companies growing.

Yes Chris you are correct. The reason why this is happening is because consumers are allowing it to happen. Look what happened when people banded together to voice their opinion about the sudden price drop of the iPhone. Apple listened and gave back. Believe me if people left the iPod on the shelf because of no wall charger. Apple would give you a charger, case, gift wrap it and send it to your house.

I live by people/companies will only do to you what you allow them to do.

[acosmichippo]

I'm sure apple performed studies and found most people don't use the wall charger, and just charge their iPods while connected to their computers. And when you consider the added features of the new iPod, it is not unreasonable to assume they put that $1 for the charger into the Nike+ hardware or speaker...

[up10ad]

I just love the way you are teaching your daughter how to make decisions about life experiences. Keep it up. Your story is touching.

I am torn about the actual details of this specific situation. On one hand I firmly believe that every company has the right to absolutely control their products and sell then in whatever manner they see fit. People who don't like it can go get a Zune or any other competitive product. On the other hand, I do see Apple cutting sorners at every turn to make more money, and charging a signiicant upcharge just for their logo. Well, I guess that is their reight to do as well.

The important part of this situation is your daughter is being given very important life lessons on decision making that will benefit her the rest of her life. Kudos to you.

[Swagger]

What really pissed me off is Apple wasn't pulling this type of crap when they were on the verge of bankruptcy. We loyal customers kept them afloat. Now it's like thanks we are where we want to be now screw you. Mark

[BigCiX]

from the famous words of Rodney King:

http://flywithbats.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/rodney_king.jpg

[kjack05]

from the famous words of Rodney King:

http://flywithbats.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/rodney_king.jpg


Much love to rodney. Catch him on the all new celebrity rehab thursdays..


I agree it is pretty petty of them to not include it if they infact dont, but did you make sure the box didnt say incuded? I really dont see them leaving something like this out.

[chris]

What really pissed me off is Apple wasn't pulling this type of crap when they were on the verge of bankruptcy. We loyal customers kept them afloat. Now it's like thanks we are where we want to be now screw you. Mark

Just of curiosity, what does a Zune ship with? Just another example of how these companies have been involved in a bit of role reversal the past few years?:tounge:

[chris]

Answered my own question...

What's Included



Microsoft Zune MP3 Player with 120GB Hard Drive
Earphones
Sync cable
Owner's manual

Just supports my original point that they are all involved. With the economy the way it's going, perhaps this will change back in the favor of the consumer.

[Swagger]

How about the famous words of Malcom X??? If you don't stand for something. You will fall for anything...

[acosmichippo]

Much love to rodney. Catch him on the all new celebrity rehab thursdays..


I agree it is pretty petty of them to not include it if they infact dont, but did you make sure the box didnt say incuded? I really dont see them leaving something like this out.

they don't. the new nanos don't either.

[chris]

they don't. the new nanos don't either.

<---- Hangs head in shame as he recently purchased said iPod Nano for wife.

[acosmichippo]

well, at least you have a few weeks before xmas.

[gotzaiPhone]

wait.... Apple ships out chargers on phones and computers and monitors and apple tv and time capsules, but they don't give ANY iPods a charger???

[chris]

wait.... Apple ships out chargers on phones and computers and monitors and apple tv and time capsules, but they don't give ANY iPods a charger???

The rationale, again not a defense, is that most people will have their iPod connected to their computer when not on the go. If you travel, then you should have your MacBook.

Now, since we're on the discussion, let's talk MacBook Air. You need to purchase an external SuperDrive and Ethernet Adapter. Of course, you could use the bizarre "share a drive", but in reality you need to have one on hand.

[Swagger]

Yes Sir that is correct. Mark

[Swagger]

The rationale, again not a defense, is that most people will have their iPod connected to their computer when not on the go. If you travel, then you should have your MacBook.

Now, since we're on the discussion, let's talk MacBook Air. You need to purchase an external SuperDrive and Ethernet Adapter. Of course, you could use the bizarre "share a drive", but in reality you need to have one on hand.

I was so quick to order the MacBook Air that I over looked the spec sheet. I called Apple thinking they forgot to ship the external optical drive. I was wrong not included. I believe the Apple Rep said I could purchase one for somewhere around three hundred. I was like I spent all this money for this low spec'd computer and now you want another 300 for what comes with every other computer out there??? You must be crazy give me my RMA code right now because you can have this right back and away it went. If Apple continues on this path of pay more get less greed. It may just be their downfall. Mark

[up10ad]

I was so quick to order the MacBook Air that I over looked the spec sheet. I called Apple thinking they forgot to ship the external optical drive. I was wrong not included.
I don't think that their decisions to leave out basic items like power adapters and drives is the correct one. But it is up to us, the consumers to make informed purchases, and give our return business to companies that offer the combination of product and price that suits our personal needs. You just didn't make an informed choice on this occasion. This isn't an Apple issue, it is a consumer decision issue. For you, the right decision is to not buy Apple products next time, but for others, it will still be an alternative. Time will tell how it affects them, and the consumer will drive that eventuality.

[Swagger]

I don't think that their decisions to leave out basic items like power adapters and drives is the correct one. But it is up to us, the consumers to make informed purchases, and give our return business to companies that offer the combination of product and price that suits our personal needs. You just didn't make an informed choice on this occasion. This isn't an Apple issue, it is a consumer decision issue. For you, the right decision is to not buy Apple products next time, but for others, it will still be an alternative. Time will tell how it affects them, and the consumer will drive that eventuality.

I completely agree with you. I got caught up in all the "Somethings In The Air" fanfare and did not do my homework. Yes that was my fault. I was so used to dealing with the old stand up company Apple (Macintosh) that I just never really checked every little offering from them with a fine tooth comb. Once again my fault. Things will be different now. I will view them as every other pedatory company and read all documentation before any future purchases. Mark

[kdarling]

To the OP: Good for your daughter. She took it extremely well, I think.

You should indeed be proud of her for sticking up for your decision... especially since you didn't do enough research, and worse, you were trying to get something extra for free.

In return, I sure hope you get her something nice. Maybe a refurbished model, or something. (I got a refurbished touch and also the video cable ... which has the power supply included, btw.)

Cheers - Kev (three daughters, two sons, two grandkids.)

[Youngbinks]

I believe the Apple Rep said I could purchase one for somewhere around three hundred. I was like I spent all this money for this low spec'd computer and now you want another 300 for what comes with every other computer out there?

Thankfully the external Superdrive that Apple sells is only $100, not $300. I got the Superdrive when I got my Air and I've only used it once in the 9 months that I've had it.

I have owned basically every version of iPod prior to the iPhone and I have NEVER gotten a wall charger with any iPod I've purchased. The first time I got a wall charger was with the iPhone and I was a bit surprised by its presence within the box.

I don't really understand how you say you don't pay a restocking fee. If you take something home with the knowledge that if you open it there is a return restocking fee charged (assuming there isn't anything wrong with the item at the time of purchase), then why open it?

[connie]

My kids have ipods and they have never used a wall charger. We do have a couple of ipod stereo's around the house and also a couple of iHome alarm clocks that charge the ipods so we have never missed the wall charger. I just think thats an extra if you want it and not necessary because you can charge with the cable they do provide. Seriously not that big deal of a deal because technically you do get a charger even if it's not the kind of charger you prefer. If you could not charge your ipod with the usb and they made you pay extra for a charger to charge the ipod then I would reconsider.

[JoeT]

I bought the original iPod way back when and it DID come with a wall charger IIRC.

However, a quick check of the iPod comparison page would have saved you a trip to the Apple Store: http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_touch?mco=MTE2NTg

At any rate, even with my iPhone I don't use the wall charger much. At home it's in a docked radio; and when I am syncing or on the road it charges on my laptop.

If you want another company to get mad at, look at Best Buy, who is charging $20.00 more for an iPhone 3G dock than Apple does!

[Swagger]

Thankfully the external Superdrive that Apple sells is only $100, not $300. I got the Superdrive when I got my Air and I've only used it once in the 9 months that I've had it.

I have owned basically every version of iPod prior to the iPhone and I have NEVER gotten a wall charger with any iPod I've purchased. The first time I got a wall charger was with the iPhone and I was a bit surprised by its presence within the box.

I don't really understand how you say you don't pay a restocking fee. If you take something home with the knowledge that if you open it there is a return restocking fee charged (assuming there isn't anything wrong with the item at the time of purchase), then why open it?

Where did your iPods come from??? Every iPod I've purchased came with a wall charger. Anyway it's personal choice. Everyone decides what they will and will not stand for.

I very rarely (as in absolutely have to) shop a BestBuy. If ever a company should be branded a pedatory company BestBuy is it. I despise the way they do business. Laptop magizine a month or two ago had an article titled "Who Needs The Geek Squad". The article echoed what I have been saying for years about BestBuy. I think it is despicable the way BestBuy takes advantage of less than savy electronics purchasers. How can you tell me you appreciate my business yet want to charge 50.00 to set up a Bluetooth headset when a consumer just bought the phone and headset from you and the list goes on. It's one thing if I pay you to do it because I'm to lazy to do it myself. It's predatory when you take advantage of a person not having an understanding of it. Especially when you are raking some 70 year old grandmother on a fixed income who buys a computer to be "connected" due to lonliness over the coals. Selling her all kinds of extra goods and services (she doesn't need) just because she doesn't know. In my mind that is no different than following her out into the parking lot knocking her down and robbing her.

Another thing that totally blows my mind is the pay to shop thing. I have to buy a membership just to shop with you??? I don't think so. I wouldn't care if the items in the store are 50% less than non pay to shop stores. Just the whole idea of buying a membership to have the privilege to spend my money with you doesn't sit well with me. A lot of Americans do it so it must work but they will never get one penny of my money no sir.

To some this all up. We all make choices everyday in life. I am not going to tell you your choices are wrong. Nor do I need anyone to tell me the choices I make for myself and my daughter are wrong. I know what type of person I would like my daughter to be. An informed consumer, a caring businesswoman and an all around good person. I tell her everyday, you do not have to take advantage of people to make money. Never do what keeps you up at night.

In closing I will staunchly stand up for what I believe in. I will also respect those that don't. What I won't do is let anyone change me. Mark

[Youngbinks]

Where did your iPods come from??? Every iPod I've purchased came with a wall charger. Anyway it's personal choice. Everyone decides what they will and will not stand for.
In closing I will staunchly stand up for what I believe in. I will also respect those that don't. What I won't do is let anyone change me. Mark

I've always purchased my iPods new from Apple stores. I suppose that I came to expect the lack of a wall charger with all of my purchases from them so I never really expected anything more.

At least you do remain adamant in what you believe. Too soon these days do people forget how to do so.

[Swagger]

I've always purchased my iPods new from Apple stores. I suppose that I came to expect the lack of a wall charger with all of my purchases from them so I never really expected anything more.

At least you do remain adamant in what you believe. Too soon these days do people forget how to do so.

Well anyway it's over now and it's the holiday. Happy Holidays to you my friend and all others at EIC. Mark

BTW: A happy ending to the story. My daughter always has my G1 more than I. I thought she was a bit to young for a cellphone. I wanted her focusing on school. She is doing very well I am happy to say. Anyway yesterday she made me so proud of her handling of the situation. She after using my G1 tried to hand it back to me. I said why are you handing me YOUR phone. She said but it's yours. I said not anymore. She was so happy. What a great way to start Thanksgiving. Happy Holidays!! Mark

[coasts]

admittedly, i didnt read through this whole thread. mark, while i admire your convictions, i cant help but wonder who lost out. Not Apple who sold one less iPod this week. Not you who walked away proud of his parenting skills.

Kids don't want life lessons. They want iPods and they'll find ways to charge them using their computers. The lucky ones will inherit a wall charger from their father who maybe just stopped using his iPhone.

[Swagger]

admittedly, i didnt read through this whole thread. mark, while i admire your convictions, i cant help but wonder who lost out. Not Apple who sold one less iPod this week. Not you who walked away proud of his parenting skills.

Kids don't want life lessons. They want iPods and they'll find ways to charge them using their computers. The lucky ones will inherit a wall charger from their father who maybe just stopped using his iPhone.

Coasts,
What made me choice so much more easy is she already has a 5th Gen 80gb iPod. She just wanted to upgrade.

Please never think a single person nor small group of people can't inspire change. Remember the two brothers that challenged Apple and made them start replacing defective iPods? One voice can turn into a million voices. It all has to start somewhere. Happy Holidays to You And Yours, Mark

My daughter will be getting the Touch via Apple's telephone sales. The Apple rep even admitted it was ridiculous not to include a charger and threw one in for free (she can purchase roughly 20 more shares of GM or Ford Stock). She said they had gotten a number of complaints regarding this issue. I don't want anything more than I should get but I certainly refuse to settle for less than what I should get.

[acosmichippo]

i just don't understand why you feel you are entitled to a charger.

[Swagger]

i just don't understand why you feel you are entitled to a charger.

Would you buy an automobile with no tires??? Mark

[Youngbinks]

Well the tires are included within the price of the vehicle. The charger is not. If Apple started charging $429 + tax (with a charger in the box), would you be more satisfied?

[Swagger]

Well the tires are included within the price of the vehicle. The charger is not. If Apple started charging $429 + tax (with a charger in the box), would you be more satisfied?

I am not going to debate my views any longer. If you or anyone else wants to give a company your money for what should be included go right ahead it does bother me. I am not going to do it period.

BTW: when Apple puts the chargers in the box again because of complaints from customers like me who stand up and say something. Make sure you don't take advantage of (mine and others like me) time and effort. Tell Apple you just don't feel right about being able to charge your device like Americans have become accustom to (charging by wall socket). And either take the charger out of the box and return it or give Apple thirty more dollars.

And if the charger was included in the box and iPod price instead of taken out to up sale. The price of the charger would be closer to it's true worth plus profit. Probably around a buck or so. Mark

[acosmichippo]

Would you buy an automobile with no tires??? Mark

if the automobile could function without tires, yes.

[Luckykelleyk]

I don't understand why so many of you don't think that you should receive a charger when you spend 150-400 dollars on a mp3 player. You most certainly should. I definitely do not consider a charger an EXTRA accessory. Not everyone has a laptop. Even though I do, I don't like to take it EVERYWHERE with me. Apple has done well, and I really think that especially with a 32 gb ipod touch you should receive a charger. Next, they will leave out the sync cable and charge you for that. Do you think that at this rate that is really out of the question? I agree with mark in this case. Your daughter seems very mature for her age!

[Swagger]

if the automobile could function without tires, yes.

Ok when I see someone driving on rims next to me. I will know it's you. Mark

[acosmichippo]

I don't understand why so many of you don't think that you should receive a charger when you spend 150-400 dollars on a mp3 player. You most certainly should. I definitely do not consider a charger an EXTRA accessory. Not everyone has a laptop. Even though I do, I don't like to take it EVERYWHERE with me. Apple has done well, and I really think that especially with a 32 gb ipod touch you should receive a charger. Next, they will leave out the sync cable and charge you for that. Do you think that at this rate that is really out of the question? I agree with mark in this case. Your daughter seems very mature for her age!

Yes, a charger would be nice to have, but it is by no means necessary for the ipod to serve its purpose. You need a computer to sync music, and your computer (if it has usb 2.0, and most do these days) will charge the ipod as well.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that apple found most people do not even use the chargers (i know i don't), and figured why throw away our money on extras people aren't even using?

It's a statistical business decision, and some people are going to fall into the minority. C'est la vie.

[acosmichippo]

Ok when I see someone driving on rims next to me. I will know it's you. Mark

roads? where i'm going, i don't need roads.

[Swagger]

I don't understand why so many of you don't think that you should receive a charger when you spend 150-400 dollars on a mp3 player. You most certainly should. I definitely do not consider a charger an EXTRA accessory. Not everyone has a laptop. Even though I do, I don't like to take it EVERYWHERE with me. Apple has done well, and I really think that especially with a 32 gb ipod touch you should receive a charger. Next, they will leave out the sync cable and charge you for that. Do you think that at this rate that is really out of the question? I agree with mark in this case. Your daughter seems very mature for her age!

Kelly,
It blows my mind to see so many people wishing to pay for what should be included. If any corporate exec's are following this post they have to be thinking the old saying "A sucker is born every minute" is true. If I were Steve Jobs peeking in to see what people are saying about his product. My first order of business tomorrow would be to double the price of the charger. Mark

When Apple was thinking of ways to cut cost and take things out of the box why didn't they remove the Apple sticker??? You certainly don't need the sticker to operate the iPod. You can advertise and show your allegiance to Apple but Apple will decide for you how you will charge your device. Mark

[acosmichippo]

Kelly,
It blows my mind to see so many people wishing to pay for what should be included.

again you misunderstand the opposing point of view... i don't use a charger, so i wouldn't HAVE to pay for it. So, in MY situation, i would rather apple put that money towards extra features built into the ipod (which i think they have).

[Luckykelleyk]

When Apple was thinking of ways to cut cost and take things out of the box why didn't they remove the Apple sticker??? You certainly don't need the sticker to operate the iPod. You can advertise and show your allegiance to Apple but Apple will decide for you how you will charge your device. Mark

It is so funny that you mention the sticker because I was thinking that also!
It is crazy when you think of all the things that apple used to include, but don't anymore. Chargers, docks, remotes, I am sure that the list goes on!

[projectdarkside]

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/bigred54345434/funny_cat_pictures_23.jpg

[iNinja]

Its not people wanting to pay more money. Its a simple case of a) Do you want an Ipod / Iphone etc, if the answer to that is yes, then b) I go and buy one. If you really want one then it doesnt come boxed with a wall charger. No, that isnt correct and No, i dont think Apple are right in doing this, but they are a company that offer a product for sale. If people want it, they will buy it, and if people dont, they wont. SIMPLE!!

Apple are trying to make as much money as possible for shareholders dividents, and as a company they are entitled to. And, as a shareholder, thats exactly what i would be expecting!! (Im not actually a shareholder btw ;) )

its like someone above says... if you went into a shop and bought lets say a car, and you wanted something that doesnt come standard on it, you would have to pay for it.

Apple are not the only company that do this, Microsoft dont include Microsoft Office with new laptops anymore... its because its not needed to make the product function. Simple as that, and if you want something extra, you have to pay (or negotiate for it)

[iNinja]

P.s - the sticker in the Ipod boxes are tax right offs, in the UK here at least. The reason for this is that a company is allowed to give a "gift" to customers up to the value of £50 (to lareg suppliers etc) as long as it promotes the company and isnt alcohol. Therefore Apple Uk spend £1m on stickers for peoples Ipods... and get 1m wrote of their taxed profits. Its a very common way to control the amount of taxed profit you make..... Im an accountant and i see this A LOT!!

[jjvaldez]

No offense, but funny this is coming from you considering just a few weeks ago you were upset that apple was selling its products at walmart. Either they're high end or they're not.

Right now, they're too high for you...but a few weeks ago, you thought they were too high for Walmart and you didnt want people who shopped at walmart to have what you had.


im out of thanks but this is the PERFECT reply to this post, either you are or not, if you are a roller and are pissed that walmart sells ipod stuff and is getting ready to sell iphone there, be the high end dude that you are and put up the $$$$$ for the wall charger

[Witness]

Either way you still need a computer to sync your songs to the ipod, so just charge it through the computer. I'm sure they sell ipod wall chargers cheaper online as well.

http://www.nextag.com/ipod-wall-charger/search-html

[Buford T. Justice]

im out of thanks but this is the PERFECT reply to this post, either you are or not, if you are a roller and are pissed that walmart sells ipod stuff and is getting ready to sell iphone there, be the high end dude that you are and put up the $$$$$ for the wall charger


LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! After reading this entire thread I had to go back and find this "anti-walmart" thread you speak of. This is the same guy that started that thread, right?

[danipoak]

It's like buy a car without a rear view mirror. Yeah the car still operates, still drives exactly the same actually. It's a pretty big inconvenience though not to have one, just like not having a wall charger when you are traveling, or don't want to go through the trouble of turning your computer on all the time.

[Swagger]

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! After reading this entire thread I had to go back and find this "anti-walmart" thread you speak of. This is the same guy that started that thread, right?

If you read the WHOLE post then you should have gotten that the issue isn't about money. It is about a charger should come in the box with an electronics device. That is my point not money!!! How many times do I need to say that??? Mark:angry:

I guess Buford wouldn't understand so I guess you wouldn't either....

[smknSRT8]

I don't have time to read the whole thread nor do I want to. But I kind of think that since it is an iPod, music device, you should have some way of charging it without a computer. NOt everyone updates there iPod monthly/week/daily. They just use it to listen to their music on the go, vacation, working out not always having access to a computer.

Im not sayin, Im just sayin.

[Witness]

If you read the WHOLE post then you should have gotten that the issue isn't about money. It is about a charger should come in the box with an electronics device. That is my point not money!!! How many times do I need to say that??? Mark:angry:

I guess Buford wouldn't understand so I guess you wouldn't either....

But it does come with a charger , except it's just a cable.
:tounge:

[smknSRT8]

If you read the WHOLE post then you should have gotten that the issue isn't about money. It is about a charger should come in the box with an electronics device. That is my point not money!!! How many times do I need to say that??? Mark:angry:

I guess Buford wouldn't understand so I guess you wouldn't either....

Swagger you are a good guy, you have helped me out before given me insight, but how come you always bring money into everything. Most people who buy a 400 iPod COULD afford the 30 wall charger. We know its not about money, but cmon man.

[Swagger]

But it does come with a charger , except it's just a cable.
:tounge:

Well try plugging that cord into a wall socket (like Americans are used to getting their electricity from) and watch what happens. Mark

[Swagger]

Swagger you are a good guy, you have helped me out before given me insight, but how come you always bring money into everything. Most people who buy a 400 iPod COULD afford the 30 wall charger. We know its not about money, but cmon man.

Matt I said the money part because people in the recent posts were saying it was an issue of money (buying the charger). I was telling them money had nothing to do with it. It was the principle of the matter...Mark

[Witness]

Well try plugging that cord into a wall socket (like Americans are used to getting their electricity from) and watch what happens. Mark

I just did and I now proudly have a fully charged iphone.

[dwp1975]

I don't see why everyone is jumping down Mark's throat. When I got the 1st gen iPod Touch, I don't think it had a charger then either so I got a griffen charger. The thing about charging on your computer versus a wall charger is charging time takes signifcantly longer to charge and if you're on the go you shouldn't be forced to wait (I am charging my iPhone on my laptop as I type this and it's not charging very fast.), we have lowered our expectations to where we just except what any company wants us too. Burn your Apple stickers in protest....sike just playing. But it is crummy to have to buy a charger. Some cheaper 3rd party chargers that are "supposed" to be compatiable make your iPhone/iPod touch get hot to the touch when charging (happened to me with the iTouch), so that is another reason a charger should be free in the box. Lastly, a bigger percentage than we like to think of Apple purchasers need to "save up" to get the product, to further gouge them for a charger is crappy at best.

[smknSRT8]

Mark,

It is nothing personal, I just feel in a lot of your posts involve money. I know you worked for it very hard for it and I respect that.

One more thing, I do not keep track of many other MP3 players like the iPhone/iPod but many of them to not come with wall chargers from what I have seen. Apple is just in the spotlight since they sell about almost 50 million iPods a year. No one is forcing anyone to buy an iPod, everyone buys them because they are far better than the competition, that is what you pay for.

[smknSRT8]

I don't see why everyone is jumping down Mark's throat. When I got the 1st gen iPod Touch, I don't think it had a charger then either so I got a griffen charger. The thing about charging on your computer versus a wall charger is charging time takes signifcantly longer to charge and if you're on the go you shouldn't be forced to wait (I am charging my iPhone on my laptop as I type this and it's not charging very fast.), we have lowered our expectations to where we just except what any company wants us too. Burn your Apple stickers in protest....sike just playing. But it is crummy to have to buy a charger. Some cheaper 3rd party chargers that are "supposed" to be compatiable make your iPhone/iPod touch get hot to the touch when charging (happened to me with the iTouch), so that is another reason a charger should be free in the box. Lastly, a bigger percentage than we like to think of Apple purchasers need to "save up" to get the product, to further gouge them for a charger is crappy at best.

If it seemed like I was jumping down his throat I am sorry, It is not like. I have talked with Mark outside of EIC and he is an awesome guy, it is just sometimes the $$$$ issue gets brought up more than others.

[dwp1975]

If it seemed like I was jumping down his throat I am sorry, It is not like. I have talked with Mark outside of EIC and he is an awesome guy, it is just sometimes the $$$$ issue gets brought up more than others.

The subject of $$$$$ always comes up for me when talking about any Apple product becuase it takes so much of it to get any of their goodies....lol. :tounge:

[Swagger]

Just to let everyone know. Apple's Rep sent me a wall charger for free and agreed one should be in the box. If others want to be herded to slaughter like cattle then that is their prerogative. I am going to stand on what i believe in.

I wouldn't have cared if the wall charger was ten cent. I was not going to buy it because it should be in the box. I was talking to a Brazilian a couple of weeks ago when I was in Brazil. He said to me "you know what I USED to admire about Americans"??? He went on to say "Americans USED to have so much fire in themselves. They used to stand up for themselves. They have now become passive and allow their selves to be exploited". Sadly I had to agree.

Stop thinking well the government said or the big corporation said so I have to go along with it or believe it. My God, Stand up for yourselves people.

I never want or need ANYTHING so bad that I am going to allow myself to be taken advantage of. That is what this whole post is about not money, not charging and ipod on a computer, not my daughter just has to have an iPod so I will teach her to be exploited just to get one. This post is about standing up and saying enough is enough if anyone can't understand that then I feel sorry for you...Mark

[Witness]

Just to let everyone know. Apple's Rep sent me a wall charger for free and agreed one should be in the box. If others want to be herded to slaughter like cattle then that is their prerogative. I am going to stand on what i believe in.

I wouldn't have cared if the wall charger was ten cent. I was not going to buy it because it should be in the box. I was talking to a Brazilian a couple of weeks ago when I was in Brazil. He said to me "you know what I USED to admire about Americans"??? He went on to say "Americans USED to have so much fire in themselves. They used to stand up for themselves. They have now become passive and allow their selves to be exploited". Sadly I had to agree.

Stop thinking well the government said or the big corporation said so I have to go along with it. My God, Stand up for yourselves people. Mark

I never want or need ANYTHING so bad that I am going to allow myself to be taken advantage of. That is what this whole post is about not money, not charging and ipod on a computer, not my daughter just has to have an iPod so I will teach her to be exploited just to get one. This post is about standing up and saying enough is enough if anyone can't understand that then I feel sorry for you...Mark

Didn't you say that you ended up not buying the ipod??
Or did you change your views on apple and decide to get it since they sent you the charger.

[dwp1975]

Didn't you say that you ended up not buying the ipod??
Or did you change your views on apple and decide to get it since they sent you the charger.

My daughter will be getting the Touch via Apple's telephone sales. The Apple rep even admitted it was ridiculous not to include a charger and threw one in for free (she can purchase roughly 20 more shares of GM or Ford Stock). She said they had gotten a number of complaints regarding this issue. I don't want anything more than I should get but I certainly refuse to settle for less than what I should get.

He ordered one thru telesales.

[Swagger]

Didn't you say that you ended up not buying the ipod??
Or did you change your views on apple and decide to get it since they sent you the charger.

Yes I bought my daughter the iPod when Apple did the right thing and included the charger that should have been included anyway...Mark

[Witness]

Yes I bought my daughter the iPod when Apple did the right thing and included the charger that should have been included anyway...Mark

Thats good to hear.:laugh2:

[psylichon]

Just to let everyone know. Apple's Rep sent me a wall charger for free and agreed one should be in the box. If others want to be herded to slaughter like cattle then that is their prerogative. I am going to stand on what i believe in.

I wouldn't have cared if the wall charger was ten cent. I was not going to buy it because it should be in the box. I was talking to a Brazilian a couple of weeks ago when I was in Brazil. He said to me "you know what I USED to admire about Americans"??? He went on to say "Americans USED to have so much fire in themselves. They used to stand up for themselves. They have now become passive and allow their selves to be exploited". Sadly I had to agree.

Stop thinking well the government said or the big corporation said so I have to go along with it or believe it. My God, Stand up for yourselves people.

I never want or need ANYTHING so bad that I am going to allow myself to be taken advantage of. That is what this whole post is about not money, not charging and ipod on a computer, not my daughter just has to have an iPod so I will teach her to be exploited just to get one. This post is about standing up and saying enough is enough if anyone can't understand that then I feel sorry for you...Mark

Some of us just don't consider it "being taken advantage of" as much as you do, Mark. Plain and simple. Calling us all sheep is not going to win folks over to your cause.

We get what you're saying... it's just not as big a deal to us. Different drummers sort of thing.

[Swagger]

Some of us just don't consider it "being taken advantage of" as much as you do, Mark. Plain and simple. Calling us all sheep is not going to win folks over to your cause.

We get what you're saying... it's just not as big a deal to us. Different drummers sort of thing.

Not to be mean my friend but I think my default signature says it all. Sometimes people will have different views but we should be able to agree to disagree and move on with no hard feelings. Mark


Didn't Denzel say "To protect the sheep you have to kill (in this case stand up to) the wolf"??? God I love that saying...

[psylichon]

I really don't know what your signature has to do with this. My iPhone is my first and only Apple product and I'm far from a fanboy. Regardless, we're in agreement here that differing opinions are golden.

[Ramesh]

Hey Mark - I have mixed feelings on this. While I probably would have bought the iPod the way it was, I agree with what you did. I read every post and wanted to make two comments.

1. My first thought and comment was going to be "call Apple directly, and I bet you could get one for free". Which you did. Kudos.

2. Kelly - I've had MANY mp3 players. Not a single one has EVER come with a wall charger. When I owned iPods, I had to buy wall chargers.

And it's not like buying a car without rims or a rearview mirror. It's like buying a car with hubcaps or a regular rearview mirror. You can upgrade to nice rims, and a nice rearview mirror that can open your garage, dim lights, etc. It's an "upgrade". Like it or not, agree with it or not, that's what it is. Mark disagreed and did his thing. Dandy. It worked. Argue with the dealer for better rims - you'll probably get them.

My point - some people don't care about rims and fancy rearview mirrors. Some do. *To each his own*.

[connie]

Yes I bought my daughter the iPod when Apple did the right thing and included the charger that should have been included anyway...Mark

I am happy your daughter got her ipod.

[Swagger]

I am happy your daughter got her ipod.

Thank you. She really made out on the deal. She got my G1 since I felt bad about not buying her the iPod. Then once my "Issue" was resolved with Apple she ended up with the iPod Touch also. It was a win win for her and for me. I was able to teach her to stand up and I still provided her with what she wanted. Since I finally gave in and allowed her to have a cellphone. I should have just bought her an iPhone. That would have covered both bases phone and iPod. She likes her G1 but she would have loved her iPhone. I don't want to get her started on my addiction of mobile devices so for now she is stuck with the G1.

BTW: I love your default signature. Happy Holidays, Mark:laugh2:

[connie]

Thanks, I went to see Rachel Scott's family speak and it was amazing the insight this poor girl had before she was killed at Columbine.

As for the iphone, my daughter too would love an iphone, but I don't think she is quite there yet in responsibility. She has an ipod nano for now and a "regular" no bells and whistles cell phone for now. I don't feel she needs phone that uses a data plan, all she does is txt, it's hard enough to try and monitor her from the internet stuff (I have already had problems with her and Myspace and made here delete it from her computer), she doesn't need it on her phone. The small web browser on her current phone has a block on it so no problems there. I am just being a mom not wanting to rush things, she is still in Jr. High.:gasp:

[Swagger]

Thanks, I went to see Rachel Scott's family speak and it was amazing the insight this poor girl had before she was killed at Columbine.

As for the iphone, my daughter too would love an iphone, but I don't think she is quite there yet in responsibility. She has an ipod nano for now and a "regular" no bells and whistles cell phone for now. I don't feel she needs phone that uses a data plan, all she does is txt, it's hard enough to try and monitor her from the internet stuff (I have already had problems with her and Myspace and made here delete it from her computer), she doesn't need it on her phone. The small web browser on her current phone has a block on it so no problems there. I am just being a mom not wanting to rush things, she is still in Jr. High.:gasp:

Amen another concerned caring parent. Mark

[FlwrPwer]

Not to bash the many youngins on this site as they're all great...or any parents for that matter, but I don't understand the need to give a 12 year old or 13 year old a cell phone in the first place.

Most of us got through our junior high years unscathed without a cell phone. To me, its just another toy to take away their innocence too young. You need to monitor everything your child does and giving them the freedom to text and call anyone they want is not a way to do that. I worked in a middle school. The texting and phone usage that went on in class was unbelievable. And yes, cell phones were not allowed, but that didn't stop them. Kids are smart when it comes to ways around teachers. Anybody heard that ridiculously high pitched ring tone that many teachers cant hear?

To me, a cell phone is not necessary until 16 years of age and the child starts driving. But that's just me.

I watch everyday how children are losing their innocence younger and younger.

Not to mention, i believe that cell phones have taken away our basic ability to solve problems on our own. Don't know where you're going, your cell phone has GPS. Get stuck on the side of the road, call someone with your cell. And I'm just as guilty as anyone.

But I also know in high school, I got a flat tire. I had no cell phone. I walked 2 miles to the police station so I could make a call. When I used to get lost, I'd stop by a gas station to ask for directions. These are all things I'm not sure children today would even think of doing. They're too dependent on technology to do everything for them.

It's the same with libraries. I'm not sure many students today know how to do a research paper using books. They just use the internet. While its great we have so much information at our fingertips, I feel I am also witnessing the downfall of a society that thinks and can solve problems.

[aknightstale41]

Unfortunately imo i believe cell phones are a necessity in todays age. Just for that reason you mentioned, a flat tire, or a lost child on the road. It was not as dangerous for us to walk home as it is for kids today. I would want a bit of security of knowing i could reach my kids anytime, not to keep tabs on them, but to know their safe. (and with gps and loopt i can keep tabs on them hehe).

[Witness]

I got my first cell phone when I was 12 for the purpose of simply communicating with my parents.How did I loose my innocence?

[Swagger]

Flower,
I agree with you 100%. Sadly as echoed by others we live in different times now. That same cellphone that has GPS might just locate your child if kidnapped. How would you have felt if on 911 you had no way of reaching your child??? (which by the way really didn't matter since Nextel was the only working service in that area on that dreadful day).

Like I said I do agree with you but in these times the good of the phone far out weighs the bad. Also with all the germs floating around who wants their kids ear on a pay phone??? Which by the way are becoming harder to find due to the saturation of cellphones.

I think it all starts at home anyway. My daughter and I have a very good relationship. She knows she can talk to me about ANYTHING. She is not met with a parents judgemental attitude. I sit and listen then talk to her. I want her to always feel like we can talk. I have also instilled values in her that she knows right from wrong and the consequences of wrong. We read and view current world events together so that she can see the evil as well as the good. I teach her that we both have a role to play. Me as a good loving providing father and she as a loving caring go by my rules daughter. I never just tell her no and that's it. I explain to her my reasoning behind saying no. She knows I love her and am very laid back about her. But she also knows "Pappa don't take no mess" (Crazy James Brown God rest his soul and his soul) :laugh2: Mark

[Witness]

I never just tell her no and that's it. I explain to her my reasoning behind saying no.

Man I wish my dad was like you , whenever my dad says no to me he just gives me some bull**** excuse like " Because I'm your father".
:angry:

[Swagger]

Man I wish my dad was like you , whenever my dad says no to me he just gives me some bull**** excuse like " Because I'm your father".
:angry:

That is how my dad was (and for that matter still is and I'm 44). I guess it works for some but I don't agree with it. I think a no with an explination is much better taken than just no. I also believe it provides more communication with the child. Heck there have been times I have said no to her explained why and through our dialogue I have changed my mind. I think just saying no stifles a childs thought process and communication skills. Not saying your dad is wrong the way he chooses to parent. I just don't do it that way. Everyone has to decide what they are comfortable with. I'm sure your dad has his reasons. Mark

[danipoak]

You need to monitor everything your child does and giving them the freedom to text and call anyone they want is not a way to do that.

Can't say I agree with that. Children young or older need some freedom and know that someone is not breathing down their throats all the time. Virtually all of my friends from high school that are now running into serious social problems came from families whose parents monitored everything their children did.

[Witness]

That is how my dad was (and for that matter still is and I'm 44). I guess it works for some but I don't agree with it. I think a no with an explination is much better taken than just no. I also believe it provides more communication with the child. Heck there have been times I have said no to her explained why and through our dialogue I have changed my mind. I think just saying no stifles a childs thought process and communication skills. Not saying your dad is wrong the way he chooses to parent. I just don't do it that way. Everyone has to decide what they are comfortable with. I'm sure your dad has his reasons. Mark

I agree with you 100% Swag.

[FlwrPwer]

Can't say I agree with that. Children young or older need some freedom and know that someone is not breathing down their throats all the time. Virtually all of my friends from high school that are now running into serious social problems came from families whose parents monitored everything their children did.

You misunderstand me. I mean at the age of 12 and 13. Once a child reaches 16, they need some freedom, but not at age 12. I'm sorry. Theres no reason that a 12 year old should have so much freedom that they're out having sex. And I had 12 year old students that were. They need to be monitored.

Once they get into the later part of their teens, you have to start letting go, yes I agree. I never had a curfew or any of that stuff. I was allowed to drink as long as there were parents around. And guess what! Because I was allowed to do all that stuff, I rarely did. There's no fun when its okay. But I had the freedom.

[FlwrPwer]

And just to add to this, I was at work the other day. A student's (aged 8) dad was 5 minutes late to pick him up from school. There was a traffic. Now, this kid started to cry, which I can understand. He then took out his cell phone and called his dad.

Hes in an elementary school where there are teachers around him every minute and phones all over the place. Why is it necessary for him to have this at the age of 8?

[Witness]

And just to add to this, I was at work the other day. A student's (aged 8) dad was 5 minutes late to pick him up from school. There was a traffic. Now, this kid started to cry, which I can understand. He then took out his cell phone and called his dad.

Hes in an elementary school where there are teachers around him every minute and phones all over the place. Why is it necessary for him to have this at the age of 8?

Wow 8 years old is wayyyy to young for a cell phone.

[connie]

When my daughter was in 6th grade (12)I was at work and had a neighbor who would drop off her daughter and mine at soccer practice. There were other girls already there so they were dropped off. The coach for some lame excuse never showed. My daughter was at some park 2 cities away and didn't know what to do. I have also had times were the coaches have ended my kids practice early and she has had to borrow other peoples phones to get in contact with me. I have also had a few incidences where her carpool mom for that week has run late, and so on. I have never felt more comfortable now that she has a phone and I know that she can get a hold of me when she needs me. She has even txt me at lunch when she hasn't felt well and has gone to the nurse and I have a heads up before the nurse even calls me. It's all about piece of mind for me.
She has a cheapy average phone thats fine for her age, I would never buy anything expensive at this age, but when you are a mom (or dad) piece of mind is priceless.

[Ramesh]

When my daughter was in 6th grade (12)I was at work and had a neighbor who would drop off her daughter and mine at soccer practice. There were other girls already there so they were dropped off. The coach for some lame excuse never showed. My daughter was at some park 2 cities away and didn't know what to do. I have also had times were the coaches have ended my kids practice early and she has had to borrow other peoples phones to get in contact with me. I have also had a few incidences where her carpool mom for that week has run late, and so on. I have never felt more comfortable now that she has a phone and I know that she can get a hold of me when she needs me. She has even txt me at lunch when she hasn't felt well and has gone to the nurse and I have a heads up before the nurse even calls me. It's all about piece of mind for me.
She has a cheapy average phone thats fine for her age, I would never buy anything expensive at this age, but when you are a mom (or dad) piece of mind is priceless.
Well said. Let those who have kids make their decisions. Their kids, their money. It doesn't matter what "you" or "they" think. It's the parent's decision. I don't have kids so I can't say that it's my right to speak my opinion. One day when I have kids, I'll make my decision then.

[Hayesimus]

Not to bash the many youngins on this site as they're all great...or any parents for that matter, but I don't understand the need to give a 12 year old or 13 year old a cell phone in the first place.

Most of us got through our junior high years unscathed without a cell phone. To me, its just another toy to take away their innocence too young. You need to monitor everything your child does and giving them the freedom to text and call anyone they want is not a way to do that. I worked in a middle school. The texting and phone usage that went on in class was unbelievable. And yes, cell phones were not allowed, but that didn't stop them. Kids are smart when it comes to ways around teachers. Anybody heard that ridiculously high pitched ring tone that many teachers cant hear?

To me, a cell phone is not necessary until 16 years of age and the child starts driving. But that's just me.

I watch everyday how children are losing their innocence younger and younger.

Not to mention, i believe that cell phones have taken away our basic ability to solve problems on our own. Don't know where you're going, your cell phone has GPS. Get stuck on the side of the road, call someone with your cell. And I'm just as guilty as anyone.

But I also know in high school, I got a flat tire. I had no cell phone. I walked 2 miles to the police station so I could make a call. When I used to get lost, I'd stop by a gas station to ask for directions. These are all things I'm not sure children today would even think of doing. They're too dependent on technology to do everything for them.

It's the same with libraries. I'm not sure many students today know how to do a research paper using books. They just use the internet. While its great we have so much information at our fingertips, I feel I am also witnessing the downfall of a society that thinks and can solve problems.

I'm going to respond to this little nugget first and then move on the tackling this rather volatile thread.

I have an issue with people saying that kids or whomever, don't need cellphones on the basis that they didn't need them when they were that age. Well, think about all the things you had that your parents didn't have. I know my parents didn't have a computer when they were a kid. I did. I know their parents probably didn't have a microwave. Maybe not even indoor plumbing.

To me, having a cellphone keeps your kid in pace with the class. Cellphones are a HUGE part of the way we live now. They weren't when I was a kid because they were so expensive. Now? They are fairly inexpensive and with the family plans they don't even cost that much a month. Kids need to start somewhere with a cellphone for the simple reason of not falling behind the times. If giving your kid some phone will keep them from feeling left out, or worse actively being made fun of, then why not? Do they need one? Who are we to decide. I don't need one. I'm 24 years old and I would still be alive and breathing tomorrow if I threw my phone in the trash today. Granted I'd probably be recovering from a stroke, but you know what I mean. I hate it when people say that something isn't important just because its the kid that wants it. Give them some credit. The can succeed if you give them a chance.

Having a phone is also a SUPER effective way of disciplining or encouraging your child to do good in school, or do chores, or just learn basic responsibility. If you say they can only have minutes if they get an A on the next test, then they will probably make every effort to acheive that goal. If they break the rules, BAM no phone and they will be hating themselves for getting caught. I mean uh... not following the rules. :p

I think if you are old enough to know how to use one, then you are old enough to have one. Responsibility grows with experience and age. Might as well start when they are young.

I find most adults just don't want kids to have one because they don't think their kids are worthy of them or something. Like they are silly for even asking. ANyway. Let me get off this soap box and get on the other one...


Look forward to another post shortly. :p

[Hayesimus]

Okay. I've tried to read through this WHOLE thread, but first let me say, Mark, I totally have empathy for you here. Not neccessarily because I think you are 100% correct, but because I have been in your boat. You have made an ethical decision and being that people's ethics vary, you have made yourself a target for scrutiny. Here's my take on it personally. I would LIKE to have a wall charger if I bought an iPod, but I WOULD probably use it mostly at my computer so its not an essential for me. I'd probably just go on ebay if I REALLY desired one instead of paying FULL price at Apple. But that's me. I totally get that you feel you deserve one. Its kinda like MMS for the iPhone. We paid this much for a phone and it should have MMS. Not because EVERYONE under the sun will use it, but because enough people probably would.


Here's my proposal. If Apple was afraid they were wasting money on an accessory that was not being used, they should have included a little voucher or coupon for the wall charger inside each iPod box. Not even saying it would have to be free, maybe bump it down to like 5 or 10 dollars. That way, if you were hankerin for a charger it wouldn't be a stretch to get it. But also Apple would save loads of money because most people wouldn't bother to use the voucher if they didn't really care about the charger. So they save money when its not needed and they still help out those that do need it.

Its a win/win. Granted its not getting exactly what you want but its a fairly good compromise.

And lastly. Lets get off Mark's case already. He just came here to vent about a disappointing venture into an Apple store to some of his friends and peeps here on the forum. I doubt he ever meant for this to become some sort of philosophical debate on the moral implications of excluding a wall charger. Do his views make him less human? NO! So, if you have a counter to his feelings, let's hear them. I just think some of the responses against his point are a little personal and not constructive.

I disagreed with him sort of, but I still have much respect for him. Although I don't see him around here nearly as much as yesteryear. Although, the same could be said of me. Meh... carry on.


:p

[aknightstale41]

Hayes, you are wiser than your years...very well said.
And a super idea about the voucher.

[up10ad]

OK, I just have to weigh in on this age/iPhone thing. I don't think Hayes is old enough to own an iPhone. There, I said it. ;)

[Hayesimus]

Hayes, you are wiser than your years...very well said.
And a super idea about the voucher.

You are too kind.
I have some rather fleeting moments of clarity and wisdom.
It's either that or sleep deprivation. We'll see if I'm still as insightful after I get some sleep. Work has been frightful this month. I haven't even gotten around to making one of my tell-all threads because I STILL don't know what to think of the latest bit of disappointing drama.


An all new thread coming soon. From HAYESIMUS. (now with more IMUS)

[Hayesimus]

OK, I just have to weigh in on this age/iPhone thing. I don't think Hayes is old enough to own an iPhone. There, I said it. ;)


I don't think you're young enough to use a computer. Or are you dictating this response to your caregiver. :p


He shoots, HE SCORES!!!!!!! And the crowd goes wild... :D

[FlwrPwer]

I have to admit that Hayes is right and that I have/had many things my parents didn't have when they were younger.

That being said, maybe I've just become a fuddy duddy. While I did have a t.v. in my bedroom growing up, I can say that IF i ever have children, they will not. Same goes for video games in their bedroom.

I'm constantly hearing about students reading books that are completely inappropriate for them, including Harry Potter. I'm a reading teacher. Harry Potter starts out at a third grade level, but by the 6th and 7th book, no students under 5th grade should be reading them. Not because they're too hard, but because developmentally the children are not ready to handle the information presented to them in those books.

Also, when we were younger, having a computer in our room was a lot less dangerous. I mean, what kind of trouble was I going to get into playing on my old pc jr. A kid with a computer in their room today can get into loads of trouble.

Not only that but t.v. When i watched t.v. in my room, I watched Nickelodeon and Disney. What are kids watching today?

Just cause kids know how to use the technology and have it available to them, does not mean it's the right thing to do.

Like I said, maybe I've just gotten too old, but I'm surrounded by students everyday and I see what all this technological freedom is doing to today's youth. Kids today look at things more jaded than most adults do and that's sad. Nobody should lose their child-like innocence so early.

[aggieman]

OK, I just have to weigh in on this age/iPhone thing. I don't think Hayes is old enough to own an iPhone. There, I said it. ;)

heh, I was just about to say you are too OLD to own an iPhone but Hayes kinda beat me to the punch with a better one :tounge:

[up10ad]

OUCH! That was a good one Hayes (and Aggie). But actually, since my company was one of the key players that practically invented forum SW and file depositories via the BBS concept in the mid '80s, I claim rights to being a geek. I want to write more but my goddamn caregiver went to take a piss.

[acosmichippo]

Okay. I've tried to read through this WHOLE thread, but first let me say, Mark, I totally have empathy for you here. Not neccessarily because I think you are 100% correct, but because I have been in your boat. You have made an ethical decision and being that people's ethics vary, you have made yourself a target for scrutiny. Here's my take on it personally. I would LIKE to have a wall charger if I bought an iPod, but I WOULD probably use it mostly at my computer so its not an essential for me. I'd probably just go on ebay if I REALLY desired one instead of paying FULL price at Apple. But that's me. I totally get that you feel you deserve one. Its kinda like MMS for the iPhone. We paid this much for a phone and it should have MMS. Not because EVERYONE under the sun will use it, but because enough people probably would.


Here's my proposal. If Apple was afraid they were wasting money on an accessory that was not being used, they should have included a little voucher or coupon for the wall charger inside each iPod box. Not even saying it would have to be free, maybe bump it down to like 5 or 10 dollars. That way, if you were hankerin for a charger it wouldn't be a stretch to get it. But also Apple would save loads of money because most people wouldn't bother to use the voucher if they didn't really care about the charger. So they save money when its not needed and they still help out those that do need it.

Its a win/win. Granted its not getting exactly what you want but its a fairly good compromise.

And lastly. Lets get off Mark's case already. He just came here to vent about a disappointing venture into an Apple store to some of his friends and peeps here on the forum. I doubt he ever meant for this to become some sort of philosophical debate on the moral implications of excluding a wall charger. Do his views make him less human? NO! So, if you have a counter to his feelings, let's hear them. I just think some of the responses against his point are a little personal and not constructive.

I disagreed with him sort of, but I still have much respect for him. Although I don't see him around here nearly as much as yesteryear. Although, the same could be said of me. Meh... carry on.


:p

Hayes, come on. People jump on swagger because he jumps on them. If it's not his misunderstanding of others' posts, it's attempting to catapult himself into Internet martyrdom with those ridiculous signatures.

Anyway, in response to your compromise solution... Ou should know by now that apple does not compromise. Whether we're talking about floppy disk drives, optical drives, USB ports, FireWire ports, a delete button, mms, copy &paste, or wall chargers, if they don't think the average user needs it, we're not gonna get it. It's a business decision, and has nothing to do with ethics. You don't like it? Then support another product that better fits your needs. Or throw your weight around until you get what you want.

[Swagger]

Okay. I've tried to read through this WHOLE thread, but first let me say, Mark, I totally have empathy for you here. Not neccessarily because I think you are 100% correct, but because I have been in your boat. You have made an ethical decision and being that people's ethics vary, you have made yourself a target for scrutiny. Here's my take on it personally. I would LIKE to have a wall charger if I bought an iPod, but I WOULD probably use it mostly at my computer so its not an essential for me. I'd probably just go on ebay if I REALLY desired one instead of paying FULL price at Apple. But that's me. I totally get that you feel you deserve one. Its kinda like MMS for the iPhone. We paid this much for a phone and it should have MMS. Not because EVERYONE under the sun will use it, but because enough people probably would.


Here's my proposal. If Apple was afraid they were wasting money on an accessory that was not being used, they should have included a little voucher or coupon for the wall charger inside each iPod box. Not even saying it would have to be free, maybe bump it down to like 5 or 10 dollars. That way, if you were hankerin for a charger it wouldn't be a stretch to get it. But also Apple would save loads of money because most people wouldn't bother to use the voucher if they didn't really care about the charger. So they save money when its not needed and they still help out those that do need it.

Its a win/win. Granted its not getting exactly what you want but its a fairly good compromise.

And lastly. Lets get off Mark's case already. He just came here to vent about a disappointing venture into an Apple store to some of his friends and peeps here on the forum. I doubt he ever meant for this to become some sort of philosophical debate on the moral implications of excluding a wall charger. Do his views make him less human? NO! So, if you have a counter to his feelings, let's hear them. I just think some of the responses against his point are a little personal and not constructive.

I disagreed with him sort of, but I still have much respect for him. Although I don't see him around here nearly as much as yesteryear. Although, the same could be said of me. Meh... carry on.


:p

Wow Hayes that was very deep thank you. You are a testimony to the fact that there is still hope for the younger generation. Not so much because you said nice things about me. More because you are the type of person that can appreciate "both sides". Your posts are alwaays intelligently written and respectful. A lot of us older folks could take a page out of your book. You are truly a man of class and honor. I respect you and I salute you. You are amazing we need more level headed people like you in the world. Happy Holidays, Mark

[Swagger]

Hayes, come on. People jump on swagger because he jumps on them. If it's not his misunderstanding of others' posts, it's attempting to catapult himself into Internet martyrdom with those ridiculous signatures.

Anyway, in response to your compromise solution... Ou should know by now that apple does not compromise. Whether we're talking about floppy disk drives, optical drives, USB ports, FireWire ports, a delete button, mms, copy &paste, or wall chargers, if they don't think the average user needs it, we're not gonna get it. It's a business decision, and has nothing to do with ethics. You don't like it? Then support another product that better fits your needs. Or throw your weight around until you get what you want.

You are basically saying Apple tells you (as in all customers) what you/all customers need. Shouldn't it be the other way around??? You/We are the customer. Apple has the attitude Apple has because we allow it. Believe me if Apple started seeing iPhone's, MBP's, iMac's, iPods and so on not being sold. They would then be "All Ears" as to what customers want. Had customers not bought one iPhone until basic features like MMS, Cut & Paste and Etc. were added. Apple would have added those things quicker than you can say Fanboy...Mark

You know you like my signatures...Mark

[Swagger]

OK, I just have to weigh in on this age/iPhone thing. I don't think Hayes is old enough to own an iPhone. There, I said it. ;)

Rick congratulations on reaching Genius status. Mark

[SmartAlx]

Anyone know what "implied warranty" means? It means that if I buy a garden hose and it is plugged up or it has holes so water won't come out of the end it cannot be defined as a hose. The implied warranty states that a hose has to function as a hose in order for someone to sell it as a hose. An mp3 player that doesn't play music is not an mp3 player. All products have implied warranties. TVs that can't show television shows aren't TVs. Cellphones that can't connect to a cellphone network aren't cellphones. Anything that doesn't do the thing it is designed to do all violate the implied warranty. (Of course this only applies to products that are sold as new so please leave ebay and collectibles out of it.)

An iPod touch that cannot be charged cannot function as a device to connect to the internet at the Starbucks down the street. It is being sold as such and it is therefore illegal for Apple to not include a wall charger. Anyone can take Apple to court and sue them for the missing wall charger and they would win. You should not have to connect your iPod touch to a computer to charge it because that is not the only thing the iPod can be used for. It has apps which can be downloaded from the app store on the iPod at a wifi hotspot. There's a commercial being broadcast right now with games being played on the touch. It can connect to the internet at a wifi hotspot. It can download music from the iTunes store on the iPod. It doesn't need a computer for any of those things. A homeless person without a computer should be able to own and use an iPod touch.

[coasts]

Anyone know what "implied warranty" means? It means that if I buy a garden hose and it is plugged up or it has holes so water won't come out of the end it cannot be defined as a hose. The implied warranty states that a hose has to function as a hose in order for someone to sell it as a hose. An mp3 player that doesn't play music is not an mp3 player. All products have implied warranties. TVs that can't show television shows aren't TVs. Cellphones that can't connect to a cellphone network aren't cellphones. Anything that doesn't do the thing it is designed to do all violate the implied warranty. (Of course this only applies to products that are sold as new so please leave ebay and collectibles out of it.)

An iPod touch that cannot be charged cannot function as a device to connect to the internet at the Starbucks down the street. It is being sold as such and it is therefore illegal for Apple to not include a wall charger. Anyone can take Apple to court and sue them for the missing wall charger and they would win. You should not have to connect your iPod touch to a computer to charge it because that is not the only thing the iPod can be used for. It has apps which can be downloaded from the app store on the iPod at a wifi hotspot. There's a commercial being broadcast right now with games being played on the touch. It can connect to the internet at a wifi hotspot. It can download music from the iTunes store on the iPod. It doesn't need a computer for any of those things. A homeless person without a computer should be able to own and use an iPod touch.

is there an award for Worst Argument Ever?

A homeless person can own and use an iPod Touch without having a computer. They would just need to purchase a wall charger for it and probably a home with a wall with an outlet.

[SmartAlx]

is there an award for Worst Argument Ever?Yes, it's given after the award for biggest jerk ever.
A homeless person can own and use an iPod Touch without having a computer. They would just need to purchase a wall charger for it and probably a home with a wall with an outlet.A homeless person can be given a brand new unopened box with a touch in it. He could conceivably charge his touch at the starbucks, or at the mall, or even outside. There are plugs everywhere outside in downtown Houston. Getting free power is easy. But a homeless person might have trouble scraping together the $30 to buy a charger.

Without a charger included any electronic device is legally not an electronic device. Period. Legal definition. Look up implied warranty for merchantability (http://www.google.com/search?rls=ig&hl=en&q=implied+warranty+of+merchantability&aq=5&oq=). It's THE MOST cogent argument in this entire thread since it makes the entire issue quite black and white.

[SmartAlx]

Man I like you Swagger. I'll bet you are the old school kind of American that would never give up any of his liberties for security. I really admire people who are willing to fight for their rights. There are far too few of us around anymore.

[glsda]

What an interesting thread covering topics from if kids should have cell phones and if so at what age to Apple giving us cut & paste no they will give us what they think we need to chargers being include with the 'product'.

Well from gramps here the German car makers were once thought of as the premier auto manufacture and you didn't need cup holders in your Porsche or Mercedes and if you ever did they would tell you where and when much like it appears Jobs does with the iPhone. As to being successful now the iPhone certainly is but will it be tomorrow? Only if it meets the consumers demands. Their quality, German auto makers was superb. I have owned both makes for years. Well here comes the Japanese, you want cup holders you get cup holders well engineered and well placed. Their quality is excellent while the German's are trying to get theirs back. You want the best in auto electronics we, the Japanses give you what you want when and where you want it. Well the Germans are playing catch up and not doing that good a job. So the Japanese have converted many German auto owners to their products.

I was a Treo user for years, we complained much like I read many of you doing about the iPhone and seeing you moving to the products that meets your needs. I gave up on Palm and came to the iPhone and am loving the experience. I follow the BBs, the G1 and Nokia's N97 and will change if and when a product better fills my needs.

In this rambling what we see is Adam Smith's invisible hand in the market place and it is great. The development of new products to meet the consumers demands creates innovation and old brands will rise to the challenge or be replaced.

What will we all own in the way of a personal communicator smart device 5 years from now? Any of you remember the eight track tape and how short it's life cycle was?

OK the care giver has told me I have bored the kids enough now off to bed with you.

[connie]

Just wanted to say- Hayes, I totally forgot to add in my little speech about my kid having a cell phone is that it is probably one the BEST
ways to ground my kids now for discipline in not letting them have their cell phones unless when they go to practice. It absolutely works for them.
And Flwrpwr, I learned to never say never when it comes to what I thought I would let me kids do or not do. You'll see one day:wink:.

[Swagger]

Man I like you Swagger. I'll bet you are the old school kind of American that would never give up any of his liberties for security. I really admire people who are willing to fight for their rights. There are far too few of us around anymore.

You are right it absolutely sickens me what is taking place in America. I won't stand on that soapbox today though. Then I'd have to hear 10 pages of why we should be giving up our rights and freedoms. All in the name of "National Security" yeah right. Mark:angry:

[dwp1975]

Wow! This is the most "diverse" thread ever, I lost count how many topics are meshed into this one thread. Mark, you did it again.....lol.

[acosmichippo]

You are right it absolutely sickens me what is taking place in America. I won't stand on that soapbox today though. Then I'd have to hear 10 pages of why we should be giving up our rights and freedoms. All in the name of "National Security" yeah right. Mark:angry:


Yeah, THAT'S what's going on here.

[spy008]

I've learned that when people say "Hey, it's the principle" it's usually all about the money.

And BTW, Apple did do "the right thing" in "giving" you the 5 cent charger. Just not "the right thing" in the way you're thinking. They bribed you with 5 cents to get your $400.


Matt I said the money part because people in the recent posts were saying it was an issue of money (buying the charger). I was telling them money had nothing to do with it. It was the principle of the matter...Mark

[fury]

It's the same with libraries. I'm not sure many students today know how to do a research paper using books. They just use the internet. While its great we have so much information at our fingertips, I feel I am also witnessing the downfall of a society that thinks and can solve problems.

Society is still thinking and solving problems. It's just in a different way today. Back in the day of paper and books, there were still kids that would take the lazy way out and copy a portion of a book, word for word, without analyzing the content and letting it sink in. It's no different today. Just a lot easier. The kids that want to learn and do well still do it the right way, and that doesn't always have to mean it came from a dead tree.

Apple is a part of that same society that is moving onto different ways to solve problems. In the days of 5 hour batteries on your 5 gig iPod the size of a deck of cards, yeah, you kind of needed a wall charger handy if you wanted to keep listening, and the world wasn't so concerned with how big a box it came in, so it was included.

Now, the battery lasts the whole day on the typical iPod in the typical usage scenario, and consumers are equally as concerned with reducing waste as with saving money. Trends of "going green" have lead to excluding unnecessary elements from the box.

Apple's been pulled in all directions, with the traditional consumers that still believe in including what they feel is necessary or value-added, and today's environment-conscious buyer that supports less waste and smaller packaging. On top of that, the sheep you will find selling Apple products in the retail stores will not have the authority to do what the former would consider right, so you got a better experience directly from Apple. They're shipping a box to you, often a big enough box to throw the charger in along with the iPod. They tell you exactly what you want to hear, like "Yeah, I agree, I think it should be in the box too. We've been hearing a lot of that" so that you think you've got someone on your side, when in fact they are probably authorized and encouraged to throw in an accessory to make the company $370 on the iPod instead of $0. They are already implementing the voucher idea in a way.

Ultimately, it's just a company trying to appeal to many diversities in the buying public. The vast majority of their target demographic that comes into the retail store cares more about a company that cares more about shrinking their packaging down to take up less space and transportation. They take care of the rest of the target demographic by direct sales where they do offer negotiations such as the free accessory.

[Elbacanazo920]

The world we live in today is based on decisions and choice. decision to vote, raise your kids, what school you go to, and what country you want to live in. We have the decision to choose our retailer just as retailers can choose the costumers they want to target.

[glsda]

Society is still thinking and solving problems. It's just in a different way today. Back in the day of paper and books, there were still kids that would take the lazy way out and copy a portion of a book, word for word, without analyzing the content and letting it sink in. It's no different today. Just a lot easier. The kids that want to learn and do well still do it the right way, and that doesn't always have to mean it came from a dead tree.

Apple is a part of that same society that is moving onto different ways to solve problems. In the days of 5 hour batteries on your 5 gig iPod the size of a deck of cards, yeah, you kind of needed a wall charger handy if you wanted to keep listening, and the world wasn't so concerned with how big a box it came in, so it was included.

Now, the battery lasts the whole day on the typical iPod in the typical usage scenario, and consumers are equally as concerned with reducing waste as with saving money. Trends of "going green" have lead to excluding unnecessary elements from the box.

Apple's been pulled in all directions, with the traditional consumers that still believe in including what they feel is necessary or value-added, and today's environment-conscious buyer that supports less waste and smaller packaging. On top of that, the sheep you will find selling Apple products in the retail stores will not have the authority to do what the former would consider right, so you got a better experience directly from Apple. They're shipping a box to you, often a big enough box to throw the charger in along with the iPod. They tell you exactly what you want to hear, like "Yeah, I agree, I think it should be in the box too. We've been hearing a lot of that" so that you think you've got someone on your side, when in fact they are probably authorized and encouraged to throw in an accessory to make the company $370 on the iPod instead of $0. They are already implementing the voucher idea in a way.

Ultimately, it's just a company trying to appeal to many diversities in the buying public. The vast majority of their target demographic that comes into the retail store cares more about a company that cares more about shrinking their packaging down to take up less space and transportation. They take care of the rest of the target demographic by direct sales where they do offer negotiations such as the free accessory.


Fury, Well said and a good read even though I don't entirely agree.

[Swagger]

Society is still thinking and solving problems. It's just in a different way today. Back in the day of paper and books, there were still kids that would take the lazy way out and copy a portion of a book, word for word, without analyzing the content and letting it sink in. It's no different today. Just a lot easier. The kids that want to learn and do well still do it the right way, and that doesn't always have to mean it came from a dead tree.

Apple is a part of that same society that is moving onto different ways to solve problems. In the days of 5 hour batteries on your 5 gig iPod the size of a deck of cards, yeah, you kind of needed a wall charger handy if you wanted to keep listening, and the world wasn't so concerned with how big a box it came in, so it was included.

Now, the battery lasts the whole day on the typical iPod in the typical usage scenario, and consumers are equally as concerned with reducing waste as with saving money. Trends of "going green" have lead to excluding unnecessary elements from the box.

Apple's been pulled in all directions, with the traditional consumers that still believe in including what they feel is necessary or value-added, and today's environment-conscious buyer that supports less waste and smaller packaging. On top of that, the sheep you will find selling Apple products in the retail stores will not have the authority to do what the former would consider right, so you got a better experience directly from Apple. They're shipping a box to you, often a big enough box to throw the charger in along with the iPod. They tell you exactly what you want to hear, like "Yeah, I agree, I think it should be in the box too. We've been hearing a lot of that" so that you think you've got someone on your side, when in fact they are probably authorized and encouraged to throw in an accessory to make the company $370 on the iPod instead of $0. They are already implementing the voucher idea in a way.

Ultimately, it's just a company trying to appeal to many diversities in the buying public. The vast majority of their target demographic that comes into the retail store cares more about a company that cares more about shrinking their packaging down to take up less space and transportation. They take care of the rest of the target demographic by direct sales where they do offer negotiations such as the free accessory.

Your long argument for Apple not including a charger is poppy **** and full of misinformed untruths. Read On:

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/image_full/usa/photosvideos/photos/rick-hind-legislative-director.jpg

Rick Hind Legislative Director Toxics Campaign of Greenpeace speaks to the media during a press conference detailing Apple’s lackluster record on e-waste in San Francisco, California. © David Paul Morris/Greenpeace

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/image_full/usa/photosvideos/photos/greenpeace-activists-gather-at-3.jpg
Greenpeace activists gather at the 5th Avenue Apple store in Manhattan shining "green" light on the emerging problem of electronic waste or e-waste. E-waste is the fastest growing source of toxic waste, much of which ends up at the fingertips of children working in toxic scrap yards in China and other developing countries. ©Greenpeace/Melissa Molyneux
© Greenpeace / Melissa Molyneux



It isn't about "Green" it's about "Greed"!!! Mark

[Swagger]

I've learned that when people say "Hey, it's the principle" it's usually all about the money.

And BTW, Apple did do "the right thing" in "giving" you the 5 cent charger. Just not "the right thing" in the way you're thinking. They bribed you with 5 cents to get your $400.

How is it a bribe when I went to Apple seeking to purchase an iPod in the first place. I was going to spend the 400.00 anyway. I just made sure that what I needed to operate an electronic device was included and not taken away just for the purpose of "up selling". Mark

[OJsakila]

Here's some more greenpeace vs. Apple "green" horse ****. It's years old, anyway but establishes an aggressive and libel angle towards Apple..http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/E83D58B3-10E0-4A9C-8847-BCE665EE235C.html

Howdy Mark. Good to see you around..:)

[Swagger]

Here's some more greenpeace vs. Apple "green" horse ****. It's years old, anyway but establishes an aggressive and libel angle towards Apple..http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/E83D58B3-10E0-4A9C-8847-BCE665EE235C.html

Howdy Mark. Good to see you around..:)

I was gone during your temporary banishment. I am glad to see you back. Happy Holidays My Friend. Keep it clean so you can stick around please. Oh by the way since you were gone. Everyone else decided to take your place and argue with me (Smile):gasp: Mark

BTW: Have you hugged your tree today??? I have...

[fury]

Your long argument for Apple not including a charger is poppy **** and full of misinformed untruths. Read On:

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/image_full/usa/photosvideos/photos/rick-hind-legislative-director.jpg

Rick Hind Legislative Director Toxics Campaign of Greenpeace speaks to the media during a press conference detailing Apple’s lackluster record on e-waste in San Francisco, California. © David Paul Morris/Greenpeace

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/image_full/usa/photosvideos/photos/greenpeace-activists-gather-at-3.jpg
Greenpeace activists gather at the 5th Avenue Apple store in Manhattan shining "green" light on the emerging problem of electronic waste or e-waste. E-waste is the fastest growing source of toxic waste, much of which ends up at the fingertips of children working in toxic scrap yards in China and other developing countries. ©Greenpeace/Melissa Molyneux
© Greenpeace / Melissa Molyneux



It isn't about "Green" it's about "Greed"!!! Mark
A quick search on Greenpeace's site indicates the change in Apple in the last year and a half.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/footer/search?q=apple&page=4

The article you cited is almost two years old.

[OJsakila]

A quick search on Greenpeace's site indicates the change in Apple in the last year and a half.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/footer/search?q=apple&page=4

The article you cited is almost two years old.

Greenpeace has a known history of "adjusting" the Law and the Truth. Citing anything from Greenpeace does not help your argument.

[Swagger]

A quick search on Greenpeace's site indicates the change in Apple in the last year and a half.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/footer/search?q=apple&page=4

The article you cited is almost two years old.

You are correct and Apple had removed wall chargers long before this. It was not about GREEN like I said it was about greed. If Apple wanted to be so Green while taking out the charger why didn't they change the packing to recycled paper. Instead Apple changed to much more harmful plastic packaging. Heck the current plastic packing has a larger Plastic footprint than the wall charger did. As I said your defense of Apple's Green initiative is poppy ****. Not Green....Greed....Or I guess it could be looked at as green but not the "Green" you are talking about...Mark

[Swagger]

Greenpeace has a known history of "adjusting" the Law and the Truth. Citing anything from Greenpeace does not help your argument.

Only to you and Rush Limbaugh :laugh2: Mark

[Youngbinks]

You are correct and Apple had removed wall chargers long before this. It was not about GREEN like I said it was about greed. If Apple wanted to be so Green while taking out the charger why didn't they change the packing to recycled paper. Instead Apple changed to much more harmful plastic packaging. Heck the current plastic packing has a larger Plastic footprint than the wall charger did. As I said your defense of Apple's Green initiative is poppy ****. Not Green....Greed....Or I guess it could be looked at as green but not the "Green" you are talking about...Mark

To which packaging are you referring? I thought the new iPhone 3G boxes incorporated potatoes in their composition actually reducing the impact ten fold? Perhaps not.
TUAW (http://www.tuaw.com/2008/06/30/iphone-3g-to-be-shipped-in-eco-friendly-packaging-spuds/)

[acosmichippo]

greed... you're assuming that there's greater profit margin in ipod touch v2 than v1.

There's no way for us to know. They're completely different products.

[Swagger]

To which packaging are you referring? I thought the new iPhone 3G boxes incorporated potatoes in their composition actually reducing the impact ten fold? Perhaps not.
TUAW (http://www.tuaw.com/2008/06/30/iphone-3g-to-be-shipped-in-eco-friendly-packaging-spuds/)

We are talking about iPods...M

[psylichon]

I think calling Fury's point of view "poppy****" is a rather poor way to engage in debate. I thought it was a rather well-presented opinion, even if I don't fully buy the argument.

[Swagger]

I think calling Fury's point of view "poppy****" is a rather poor way to engage in debate. I thought it was a rather well-presented opinion, even if I don't fully buy the argument.

I would have thought so to if fury had of given an equally good argument for the iPod packaging being plastic. I am still waiting for an answer to that rationale. Take out the wall charger to reduce plastic footprint. Yet change the packaging to plastic. Blows Fury's assumption out of the water and further supports mine...Mark

[psylichon]

Boy, you really showed him, Mark. I guess you win. :)

Why is this a contest? People are just giving different viewpoints here.

[Youngbinks]

Clearly it's always a contest...

[fury]

I am referring to the shipping volume, not the plastic footprint, as it has more of an impact than the difference between cardboard and plastic. The iPod packaging is smaller plastic jewel-like casing for everything except the iPod classic now. Smaller boxes = ship more on each plane & truck = fewer plane & truck trips to deliver the same goodies to the stores. That is the largest influence on their decision for smaller packaging, and for smaller packaging, they made the choice of excluding the bulky wall charger because consumer demand for it is less than the consumer demand for conservative packaging and waste consciousness. I am not saying all they want is to make more money, nor am I saying all they want is to go greener. Both are factors.

There is a whole third-party market out there full of wall chargers that many people were buying afterwards anyways, as well as a large demographic of people who never ended up using the included wall charger to begin with (up to the 3rd or 4th generation iPod I believe).

My iPhone's wall charger has been sitting in the box for over a year and a half. My cousin's iPod touch lasts for a day or two after charging it up from her iMac overnight. Why give everybody a wall charger when not everybody will use it? It's not about the plastic. It's about the waste. 150 million iPods out there. How many of those are actually getting charged from the wall? Do you now see another reason why they might have excluded that wall charger, instead of the easy excuse that Apple is turning into an uncaring corporate devil?

[acosmichippo]

Paper or Plastic? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18538484/)

doesn't really matter.

[SmartAlx]

Paper or Plastic? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18538484/)

doesn't really matter.
With that figure you can directly measure the carbon footprint and offset it by doing things like planting trees. The embodied energy of one paper bag is equivalent to the embodied energy of 100 plastic bags. Between paper or plastic, plastic is the most environmentally conscious choice. Of course canvas might even be a better choice. But what is the embodied energy of one canvas bag? Hmmm??

By the way, if we are concerned about how green Apple is, what do you all think of Apple's new commercial about their macbooks being the greenest notebooks on the market?

[acosmichippo]

A fortiori...

[Swagger]

I am referring to the shipping volume, not the plastic footprint, as it has more of an impact than the difference between cardboard and plastic. The iPod packaging is smaller plastic jewel-like casing for everything except the iPod classic now. Smaller boxes = ship more on each plane & truck = fewer plane & truck trips to deliver the same goodies to the stores. That is the largest influence on their decision for smaller packaging, and for smaller packaging, they made the choice of excluding the bulky wall charger because consumer demand for it is less than the consumer demand for conservative packaging and waste consciousness. I am not saying all they want is to make more money, nor am I saying all they want is to go greener. Both are factors.

There is a whole third-party market out there full of wall chargers that many people were buying afterwards anyways, as well as a large demographic of people who never ended up using the included wall charger to begin with (up to the 3rd or 4th generation iPod I believe).

My iPhone's wall charger has been sitting in the box for over a year and a half. My cousin's iPod touch lasts for a day or two after charging it up from her iMac overnight. Why give everybody a wall charger when not everybody will use it? It's not about the plastic. It's about the waste. 150 million iPods out there. How many of those are actually getting charged from the wall? Do you now see another reason why they might have excluded that wall charger, instead of the easy excuse that Apple is turning into an uncaring corporate devil?

Ok Fury I can go along with that but don't charge kids that saved up their allowance to buy an iPod 30 bucks for a charger. I'm sorry but that part of the equation to me is greed. Let the customer make the choice how they charge their iPod not the corporation.

One poster here had a good idea give a voucher for the charger or have some on hand in store for giveaway. Some people still wish for the much faster charging that the wall outlet offers....Mark

P.S. I strongly believe in conservation but sometimes there is a thin line between green an greed.

[Swagger]

Boy, you really showed him, Mark. I guess you win. :)

Why is this a contest? People are just giving different viewpoints here.

Oh Dave please stop being the fuddy duddy EIC police. No one is disrespecting anyone here. We are merely having robust debate that requires deeper thinking and intensive articulation of one's point. Mark

[psylichon]

I calls it like I sees it Mark. Carry on.

[iNinja]

I agree with Dave, this isnt about who wins or who is right and wrong. This is purely peoples opinions, and nobody should be criticised for having an opinion. In todays society people should be applauded for having an opinion.... thats what changes the world...

Also, i like the comment before about apple stealing our money for wall chargers, and that it is a legal definition of an electonics device etc etc... and then he goes on to say a homeless man can charge his touch anywhere as there are lots of outside sockets in Houston.... Now in the UK, stealing electiricty is as illegal as it gets.... :)

[Swagger]

I agree with Dave, this isnt about who wins or who is right and wrong. This is purely peoples opinions, and nobody should be criticised for having an opinion. In todays society people should be applauded for having an opinion.... thats what changes the world...

Also, i like the comment before about apple stealing our money for wall chargers, and that it is a legal definition of an electonics device etc etc... and then he goes on to say a homeless man can charge his touch anywhere as there are lots of outside sockets in Houston.... Now in the UK, stealing electiricty is as illegal as it gets.... :)

The person who posted lives in the U.S. so he was referring to what goes on here not the UK. If we lived in the UK or at least had some of the rules businesses have to abide by when related to consumer protection. We would then not even be having this whole debate...Mark

[SmartAlx]

The person who posted lives in the U.S. so he was referring to what goes on here not the UK. If we lived in the UK or at least had some of the rules businesses have to abide by when related to consumer protection. We would then not even be having this whole debate...MarkWell, we actually do have consumer protection laws here in the U.S. This is one of them. The laws just aren't enforced. Just like Congress and the Courts pretty much completely ignoring the constitution.

Guess that's the way things are going these days in America. Too bad people are so lazy they aren't willing to fight the government for their rights. Maybe if the economy keeps dropping we'll find more people willing to stand up.

[fury]

Ok Fury I can go along with that but don't charge kids that saved up their allowance to buy an iPod 30 bucks for a charger. I'm sorry but that part of the equation to me is greed. Let the customer make the choice how they charge their iPod not the corporation.

One poster here had a good idea give a voucher for the charger or have some on hand in store for giveaway. Some people still wish for the much faster charging that the wall outlet offers....Mark

P.S. I strongly believe in conservation but sometimes there is a thin line between green an greed.

The customer can make the choice already, and I agree should be able to just as easily everywhere as they can directly from Apple. It's just a lot harder to get the retail stores to let a charger go in order to pick up the larger sale of the iPod touch. Retail workers are probably scared into strict compliance of profiting on everything that leaves the store. Apple direct sales, on the other hand, appears to have more leeway, as you experienced when they threw the charger in the box after a little bit of negotiations over the phone. Retail isn't authorized to do that, most likely, unless you can get a hold of a manager with a little piss and vinegar that actually doesn't mind getting the occasional roughing up in exchange for a happy customer or two.

My guess is that the voucher idea is already being implemented quietly in direct sales (since you got it when you called to order over the phone), but not in the middle-man retail stores. Or not yet? Maybe they need to hear more demand around the retail stores for the fast charger along with the iPod.

[Swagger]

Well, we actually do have consumer protection laws here in the U.S. This is one of them. The laws just aren't enforced. Just like Congress and the Courts pretty much completely ignoring the constitution.

Guess that's the way things are going these days in America. Too bad people are so lazy they aren't willing to fight the government for their rights. Maybe if the economy keeps dropping we'll find more people willing to stand up.

I totally agree... Mark

[acosmichippo]

People are lazy for not going to court for a $30 ipod charger, huh?

Maybe they just have more important things to worry about.

[Swagger]

People are lazy for not going to court for a $30 ipod charger, huh?

Maybe they just have more important things to worry about.

Can't everyone see. The wall charger is just a prop in this thread so is the 30.00 . What this thread is about is paying more and getting less also corporate greed. It's about companies squeezing every freaking penny out of consumers pockets. It's also about customers who don't stand up and bend over and take it with no grease while bashing those of us who do stand up... Mark

[acosmichippo]

...this thread is about is paying more and getting less...

iPod Touch v2 has an improved processor, improved battery, external speaker, external volume controls, and Nike+ hardware built-in.

Less is more, i guess.

Face it, the Ac adapter is just a feature that YOU want that is not included. Nothing wrong with that, but don't try to pass it off as apple being greedy.

[Swagger]

There is never a shortage of stupidity in America. Mark

BTW: Not directed at any particular person. Just thinking out loud..

[Ramesh]

There is never a shortage of stupidity in America. Mark

If that hat fits...

[couldn't pass that up, Mark]:tounge:

[FlwrPwer]

There is never a shortage of stupidity in America. Mark

Just something I have noticed, but everytime someone disagrees with you, they are stupid.

If this was a true debate, you would allow other people to voice their own opinions without calling them stupid for not agreeing with you.

I would probably find it annoying there was no wall charger, but I don't know. I don't have an ipod and don't plan on buying one. I use my iPhone. But obviously, tons of people don't find it a huge necessity. Does that make them all stupid?

Maybe they didn't stand up for it, not because they're stupid, but because they just didn't care.

[acosmichippo]

Sometimes people just need to STFU.


Not directed toward anyone in particular...

[Swagger]

Sometimes people just need to STFU.


Not directed toward anyone in particular...

Why don't you then??? M

[Swagger]

I can't wait to see the day all you nay sayers line up to buy an automobile that the tires are sold seperately. The day is coming and it all because people allow it to happen. Need a charger or not. It's an electrical device it should come with one period!!! Mark

[FlwrPwer]

Well I believe that cars should come with mats, but not all do. Those are usually extra.

I'm not gonna put up a stink about it. Most times, the dealer will throw them in anyway.

I'm not saying what you did was wrong, or how you feel is wrong. I'm just saying that not everybody feels the same way as you. That doesnt make them stupid, it is just their opinion.

[Ramesh]

I can't wait to see the day all you nay sayers line up to buy an automobile that the tires are sold seperately. The day is coming and it all because people allow it to happen. Need a charger or not. It's an electrical device it should come with one period!!! Mark

Sigh... Mark - It DOES come with a charger. Maybe not the type you wanted, but at the end of the day - it's a charger.

Well I believe that cars should come with mats, but not all do. Those are usually extra.

I'm not gonna put up a stink about it. Most times, the dealer will throw them in anyway.

I'm not saying what you did was wrong, or how you feel is wrong. I'm just saying that not everybody feels the same way as you. That doesnt make them stupid, it is just their opinion.

This is exactly right. He (Mark) didn't do anything wrong, and this analogy is spot on.

[Hayesimus]

You guys, lets grow up a little bit. Swagger and Hippo, you are both two of our most senior members. We have seen that you have a difference of opinion for about 15 pages now. You have different takes on the issues. That's good. I'd hate to go to a forum where everyone says the same thing all the time. That'd be pretty boring. But you are both sides of the same quarter. You both deserve a lot of respect around here and you both have been very beneficial members of this forum in my opinion. So, since this argument is likely to continue going round and round in circles, why don't we all just live and let live. To be fair you have BOTH been taking this thread too personally. But that doesn't mean we can't all get along! At least for the sake of the other less seasoned members here. Bickering between two power-names on the forum is less than conducive to a productive and welcoming site like the EIC has always endeavored to be. So let's break out that bodybuilders hugging pic and get back to mature conversations that maintain respect for all participants! :p

[Witness]

Wow , this argument is still going on?

[Hayesimus]

I'm trying to bring peace to the off topic section one thread at a time...

[Ramesh]

I'm trying to bring peace to the off topic section one thread at a time...
This isn't off topic... :laugh2:

[acosmichippo]

You guys, lets grow up a little bit. Swagger and Hippo, you are both two of our most senior members. We have seen that you have a difference of opinion for about 15 pages now. You have different takes on the issues. That's good. I'd hate to go to a forum where everyone says the same thing all the time. That'd be pretty boring. But you are both sides of the same quarter. You both deserve a lot of respect around here and you both have been very beneficial members of this forum in my opinion. So, since this argument is likely to continue going round and round in circles, why don't we all just live and let live. To be fair you have BOTH been taking this thread too personally. But that doesn't mean we can't all get along! At least for the sake of the other less seasoned members here. Bickering between two power-names on the forum is less than conducive to a productive and welcoming site like the EIC has always endeavored to be. So let's break out that bodybuilders hugging pic and get back to mature conversations that maintain respect for all participants! :p

i don't take any of this personally. I just find some people's sense of entitlement amazing.

[Hayesimus]

oops I am tired. I didn't realize what section this was in.
And hippo while you claim not to take it personally, you are in fact making it look personal with some of your responses. Like I said, its not just you. But I think we've already gotten the fact that not only do you both disagree, but you both are stubborn. :p

So take lets all take chill pills and dance to techno or something...

[acosmichippo]

i'll be the first to admit i am stubborn. I see a statement i think is wrong, and i must discount it... especially when so many come from the same source.

[Hayesimus]

Are you infallable? My point is an opinion is just an opinion. None of us knows the true intentions of Apple unless someone has connections to Steve Jobs and has been holding out on us. Anyway, here I am going in circles about going in circles. So. Since I've only had two hours of sleep in the past two days, I'm going to get to bed. Ya'll play nice while I'm gone or I WILL type up another page long touchy feely hugging post on your asses!

As always with respect,
Adios Amigos
lata

[acosmichippo]

hayes, if only it was just a difference of opinion...

[Swagger]

Hayes you are right.

The only thing I have tried to say is this. Since everyone here loves Apples dirty shorts let's take them out of the equation for a moment. A poster used car mats so we will use that as an example. Mats used to come standard in cars they haven't for a long time. As corporations become more and more greedy they find ways to remove standard items then charge for them. Or take them out then throw them in for free like they did you a favor giving you something that should have been there anyway. We are sliently allowing our children to be poisoned by unsafe toys from china just to boost toy makers profits. We watch as wall street is bailed out while many Americans go homeless due to job loss. We say nothing because it may not directly affect us. Maybe not today but who knows what tomorrow brings. We watch everyday as our investments dwindle due to lies and mismanagement from the people we intrust our money to.

America is facing a crisis of untold proportions. You know why because we have become passive. We have lost our ba**s so to speak. We are allowing ourselves to be brainwashed and hood winked by the powers that be. I am sick and tired of seeing this happen. The whole world is talking about us but we aren't listening and it is eventually going to be our downfall. We are running towards it at a fast pace. We could all stop what is happening in and to America. We the citizens out number the powers that be. Yet we have been rocked to sleep. If a person can't stand up for a plug to charge an electrical item. I see then how it was so easy to dupe the masses into dragging American into an invasion of a country that never should have happened. Now many lost young lives and billions of taxpayer dollars later what did we accomplish not a damn thing just like Viet Nam.

At least back then large numbers of Americans stood up and cried foul. Take NAFTA Americans remained silent and look what has now happened. Half the country is unemployed. The Patriot Act is another example. You can't even check a freaking book on Islam out of the library without being accused of being a terrorist. Our calls and emails are being monitored closely. Why??? not because of national security because we American let these things come about. I'm sorry if I seem a little pissed off but I am!!! This country has gone to hell and it is because we have allowed it to happen. When are we going to say we have had enough??? You see the charger was just a microcosm of a much larger problem...Mark

[coasts]

Can't everyone see. The wall charger is just a prop in this thread so is the 30.00 . What this thread is about is paying more and getting less also corporate greed. It's about companies squeezing every freaking penny out of consumers pockets

so, this car in your avatar that you have (in black) is priced according to manufactured cost? they didn't squeeze a couple of pennies extra out of you. did you opt out of any features, simply because you personally didnt want them and didnt feel the expense was necessary?

the real problem with America is that everyone wants to point out its flaws. this is business, man! everything is a rip off, everywhere, always and i've got my wallet out.

you want a 16gig Touch, it's $299. you want one with a charger, it's $328. cash or credit? otherwise, hit the bricks.

[Youngbinks]

Wow comparing a $30 charger to the lives of thousands of men lost in Vietnam. Kudos.

[Swagger]

i don't take any of this personally. I just find some people's sense of entitlement amazing.

You keep using the word entitlement??? How in the heck is expecting an electric plug (not USB cord) to come with an electric item looking for an entitlement???

Your arguement is basically saying. Buy an iPod the purchase a 3000.00 MBP to charge it. Until I outfit my entire home with USB outlets. I'm sorry I want a freaking electrical plug with my electrical device. How that is so hard to understand is beyond me. Mark:angry:

[psylichon]

This thread is running in circles ridiculously. It should really be shut down. Sorry Mark.

But I think you made your point.

[FlwrPwer]

You keep using the word entitlement??? How in the heck is expecting an electric plug (not USB cord) to come with an electric item looking for an entitlement???

Your arguement is basically saying. Buy an iPod the purchase a 3000.00 MBP to charge it. Until I outfit my entire home with USB outlets. I'm sorry I want a freaking electrical plug with my electrical device. How that is so hard to understand is beyond me. Mark:angry:

We understand it Mark. We get you want that plug.

But what you don't get, is that not everyone sees it the way you do. You're not comprehending that point.

You see it your way. Others see it theirs. End of story!

[Swagger]

so, this car in your avatar that you have (in black) is priced according to manufactured cost? they didn't squeeze a couple of pennies extra out of you. did you opt out of any features, simply because you personally didnt want them and didnt feel the expense was necessary?

the real problem with America is that everyone wants to point out its flaws. this is business, man! everything is a rip off, everywhere, always and i've got my wallet out.

you want a 16gig Touch, it's $299. you want one with a charger, it's $328. cash or credit? otherwise, hit the bricks.

Believe me I got a good price and had I have felt I got screwed on one aspect of the purchase (no matter how badly I wanted it). I would have told Double R to shove it. Like I said in another post. People that don't understand just because you have money you should throw it away. Come to South Florida and watch people with XXXL bank accounts haggle over a penny of undue charges. I was taught by ruthless Jewish businessmen that should explain it all. I don't believe as they did to screw people just to build my wealth. I do live by what they taught me to never let anyone get a penny out of me they don't deserve. Mark

[coasts]

Come to South Florida and watch people with XXXL bank accounts haggle over a penny of undue charges.

i grew up in Parkland. Went to Douglas High. I'm proud to say I got out of there without picking up any of the traits of my neighbors. They're not arguing for justice, they're arguing because they're arrogant.

[acosmichippo]

You keep using the word entitlement??? How in the heck is expecting an electric plug (not USB cord) to come with an electric item looking for an entitlement???

Your arguement is basically saying. Buy an iPod the purchase a 3000.00 MBP to charge it. Until I outfit my entire home with USB outlets. I'm sorry I want a freaking electrical plug with my electrical device. How that is so hard to understand is beyond me. Mark:angry:

No, my argument is that technology evolves. One day an AC adapter is needed by the majority... on another it isn't. One day apple doesn't think an internal speaker is necessary on an ipod... on another they realize it is a nice addition.

Funny thing is that it's easier to add an AC adapter aftermarket (if you want one), whereas an internal speaker is impossible to add. Maybe apple actually put some thought into creating a product that will appeal to the largest population possible.

There are many ways to spin this situation to suit a particular point of view. The fact is, until someone can provide the percentage markup on ipod touches, we'll never know if apple excluded ad ac adapters purely for profit.

[Swagger]

This thread is running in circles ridiculously. It should really be shut down. Sorry Mark.

But I think you made your point.

Why should a thread that has covered so many topics and is still being debated be closed??? Because you didn't start it???

BTW: Coasts I am truly thinking of selling the Phantom and donating half the money to a cause that provides food and shelter to out of work Americans. I am starting to feel guilty (not that I have a reason to I just do) about all my toys when others are facing serious problems. Like if they will be able to eat tonight or have a bed to sleep in. I am not as terrible as all of you make me out to be. My views always standing up for the little man should demonstate that. I love my Martini's but I should never live my life in a way that I have to drink two or three for the purpose of allowing me to sleep at night (like some people I know)... Mark

[FlwrPwer]

Why should a thread that has covered so many topics and is still being debated be closed??? Because you didn't start it???



Because Mark, a debate to you is you calling everybody stupid if they don't agree with you.

You can't debate. If someone disagrees, you insult. That is not called for and is not welcomed.

[OJsakila]

Apple will most likley start including the wall charger just as soon as they re-coup what they lost on the houses they burnt down with the faulty ones they just gave us...

[psylichon]

I want the thread to be closed before you or someone else says something you regret. You've made your point. You can't make it any more clear, and you've made it clear that you have no interest in hearing other people's points of view, so what more, exactly, is to be accomplished with this thread? Enough is enough.

[Swagger]

I want the thread to be closed before you or someone else says something you regret. You've made your point. You can't make it any more clear, and you've made it clear that you have no interest in hearing other people's points of view, so what more, exactly, is to be accomplished with this thread? Enough is enough.

Finally the two words I love to hear come in an EIC members post. Enough is Enough (ok three words) maybe directed at the wrong person but still a good start. Dave if you can repeat those same words to Apple. I will shut up...LOL, Mark

One quick question. If you feel that I made my point days ago. Why then do you keep returning to read more??? Mark

[OJsakila]

BTW: Coasts I am truly thinking of selling the Phantom and donating half the money to a cause that provides food and shelter to out of work Americans. I am starting to feel guilty (not that I have a reason to I just do) about all my toys when others are facing serious problems. Like if they will be able to eat tonight or have a bed to sleep in. I am not as terrible as all of you make me out to be. My views always standing up for the little man should demonstate that. I love my Martini's but I should never live my life in a way that I have to drink two or three for the purpose of allowing me to sleep at night (like some people I know)... Mark

Wow. That might be the largest of load of terribly arrogant self involved narcissistic shallow minded horse **** I have ever heard in my entire life. If you actually thought about typing this load of bull**** beforehand, you should have just cut&pasted something. That would have simply branded you as a plagaurist... ...and that would have been much more flattering than these comments (from the heart, I'm sure).:wink:


In your defense, however, I agree that Apple should include the wall charger.

[Swagger]

Wow. That might be the largest of load of terribly arrogant self involved narcissistic shallow minded horse **** I have ever heard in my entire life. If you actually thought about typing this load of bull**** beforehand, you should have just cut&pasted something. That would have simply branded you as a plagaurist... ...and that would have been much more flattering than these comments (from the heart, I'm sure).:wink:


In your defense, however, I agree that Apple should include the wall charger.

Cut & Pasted??? surely you jest. I am typing this on my iPhone not my Mac or Storm. M

[psylichon]

One quick question. If you feel that I made my point days ago. Why then do you keep returning to read more??? Mark

Hey man, if you're still having a good time in this thread, far be it from me to stop you. Cheers.

[OJsakila]

I want the thread to be closed before you or someone else says something you regret. You've made your point. You can't make it any more clear, and you've made it clear that you have no interest in hearing other people's points of view, so what more, exactly, is to be accomplished with this thread? Enough is enough.


That sounds like something you've told me a time or two..:wink:

Yea, this poor ole' thread is dead. No question about that. I'm sorry it took me so long to get involved. Mark is one of my favorites to get all worked up..:laugh2:

[SmartAlx]

well i believe that cars should come with mats, but not all do. Those are usually extra.
I think a filler tube to fill up the gas tank would be a better example. Imagine buying a car (say a plug-in hybrid) that you couldn't fill up with gas! Oh, you could spend an additional $300 to have a filler tube installed but if you want to drive your car after the initial tank you'll have to plug it into the wall and drive on the batteries. You can still drive the plug in hybrid, but it will take several hours to charge it up. While the people who payed the extra $300 get to go to a gas station, fill up their tanks with gasoline, and drive their cars right away! That is almost exactly the same situation we are having with the touch.
I'm not saying what you did was wrong, or how you feel is wrong. I'm just saying that not everybody feels the same way as you. That doesnt make them stupid, it is just their opinion.
If this was a true debate, you would allow other people to voice their own opinions without calling them stupid for not agreeing with you.

I would probably find it annoying there was no wall charger, but i don't know. I don't have an ipod and don't plan on buying one. I use my iphone. But obviously, tons of people don't find it a huge necessity. Does that make them all stupid?
we understand it mark. We get you want that plug.

But what you don't get, is that not everyone sees it the way you do. You're not comprehending that point.

You see it your way. Others see it theirs. End of story!
There is a big difference between opinion and fact. Yes, everybody is entitled to their opinion, but we are talking facts here. You might have missed my reply earlier so I'll give you benefit of the doubt.

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR APPLE TO SELL AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE AS AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE WITHOUT INCLUDING THE CAPABILITY TO RECHARGE IT.

That is a fact, not an opinion. Saying that you can charge it with a computer doesn't hold any water because you can use a touch without ever connecting it to a computer. The touch has wifi so it can get online to download apps and music right to the device. But if it doesn't have a charger then it won't work for long. And that is why Apple must legally include a wall charger. (The wall charger voucher is an excellent idea but what do people do who live 100 miles from the nearest Apple store, Best Buy or Wal Mart that sells the wall chargers when they get home?)

Disagreements often turn into arguments when one of the parties doesn't realize that they are arguing about facts that cannot be disproven. They think that they are arguing over opinion but they aren't. They are arguing over facts, facts that can be proven or disproven.

This is the case here. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. Yes you might not need/want the wall charger. But that doesn't change the fact that it's illegal for Apple to charge their customers for a capability required to satisfy the implied warranty.

It's why Mark won't shut his trap about this. He is trying to make you all realize the fact that Apple HAS to provide a wall charger.

This law (implied warranty) can be proven. It's just not enforced in America much. Someone has to sue the company Apple (for a $30 charger) to keep them in line. $30 cases with giants like Apple never make it to court so that is why class action lawsuits can have a real positive impact. They might not make much moeny for anyone but the lawyers but they do cost the company money so the threat of class action lawsuits keep big companies from acting like bullies. Apple's acting like a bully so someone needs to sue them. If I could I would sue Apple (for selling a device with an internet browser that cannot surf the internet - because it crashes every 3 minutes... also a browser that is advertised that it has the "real internet" when it won't use flash - a very very important feature for the real internet.)

P.S. FlwrPwer I don't mean to pick on you. You just happened to post all of the responses I wanted to reply to. Pure coincidence. And you aren't an idiot nor stupid, just a bit ignorant of the law... which is not an insult... the word ignorant just means that you don't know.

[Youngbinks]

=

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR APPLE TO SELL AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE AS AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE WITHOUT INCLUDING THE CAPABILITY TO RECHARGE IT.

And how does Apple make it IMPOSSIBLE to recharge an iPod by including the USB cable? That is a capability to recharge it, is it not?

[psylichon]

Do you have a link to this electronic charging law? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm genuinely curious.

[SmartAlx]

And how does Apple make it IMPOSSIBLE to recharge an iPod by including the USB cable? That is a capability to recharge it, is it not?Please keep reading... I'll repost the part you missed....Saying that you can charge it with a computer doesn't hold any water because you can use a touch without ever connecting it to a computer. The touch has wifi so it can get online to download apps and music right to the device. But if it doesn't have a charger then it won't work for long. And that is why Apple must legally include a wall charger.

[SmartAlx]

Do you have a link to this electronic charging law? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm genuinely curious.http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-314

§ 2-314. Implied Warranty: Merchantability; Usage of Trade.

(1) Unless excluded or modified (Section 2-316 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-316)), a warranty that the goods (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#Goods) shall be merchantable is implied in a contract (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#contract) for their sale (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#sale) if the seller (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#Seller) is a merchant (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#Merchant) with respect to goods of that kind.

(2) Goods (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#Goods) to be merchantable must be at least such as:

(c) are fit for the ordinary purposes for which goods (http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#Goods) of that description are used;As an example:
fit (useable) for the ordinary purposes (playing music) for which goods of that description (music players) are used.

To be sold as a music player it must be fit to play music.

Apple sells the device as a music playing device so the user should be allowed to use the touch as a music only device. Nowhere does Apple say that you have to own a computer to use the touch. The owner doesn't need a computer to put music on their iPhone. He can go to the starbucks down the street and buy all of the music he wants from their wifi but without a wall charger the device won't run for long. Therefore without the wall charger the touch is not fit for the ordinary purpose for which it was designed. It can't play music without a wall charger... or a computer. Since they didn't say that you have to have a computer, then they must provide another means to charge it. Without the means to charge it, it is not legally a device capable of playing music. But they are selling it as such.

I can just as easily use apps in this example too. Or games. Ever see the "funnest iPod ever" commercials? Some people might not like music so they could have bought the touch as a wifi internet/game playing device. For Apple to market it as a game playing device, it must work as a game playing device. It must be chargable right out of the package, unless somewhere on the packaging do they say that you have to purchase a wall charger yourself or provide charging via a computer. I don't think they do that. Not really Apple's style to advertise limitations.

[jjvaldez]

ok.. wanted to stay away but here I go....

the reason that the itouch does not come with the charger is to keep the price down, this happens in 2 ways, less to package, smaller package, less money, another thing is to save the cost of the charger its self, you save 30 bucks cuz there is no charger.

if you really need a charger, there is NO NEED to get a charger that is apple, there are 3rd party makers that make chargers that will work, [or is that no up the the swagger that you have to get 3rd party stuff?]

as for the car, phuck that dude, keep ur ****, selling your stuff s not going to fix anything [im not implying that there is something wrong, but if you are selling your stuff, heh, just keep it]

it is not going to make you less agogant if you sell the stuff you have, this will make you more arrogant.

i remember that there was a time on here that you had ALL the things that you own on your signature and we asked you to take it off cuz it was annoying, you cried and left for a while, this is arrogant, and dont give that bull S reason that showing what you have is not showing off and that it is not your fault that you have money and what not.

heh............

i dono man , i think that you need to re think that swagger if you are going to let teh charger get you like that.

agggggg
what ever

[Fred87nc]

This is funny, before the iPhone, none of the iPods came with a wall charger, just the USB cable. Well atleast back when I got my 30gb Ipod video it didn't.

When I went to buy my iPhone on day one, the At&t was trying to sell the wall chargers that were on display to a costumer, I was thinking of getting one, but I couldn't down another 30 dollars after 600 + tax, so I got a over priced case instead.

Well to my surprise the iPhone did come with a wall charger. Bottom line, if a significant amount of consumers ***** about something, the companies will do something about it.

[jjvaldez]

This is funny, before the iPhone, none of the iPods came with a wall charger, just the USB cable. Well atleast back when I got my 30gb Ipod video it didn't.

When I went to buy my iPhone on day one, the At&t was trying to sell the wall chargers that were on display to a costumer, I was thinking of getting one, but I couldn't down another 30 dollars after 600 + tax, so I got a over priced case instead.

Well to my surprise the iPhone did come with a wall charger. Bottom line, if a significant amount of consumers ***** about something, the companies will do something about it.


i remember being there and all the employees making the customers that they needed all the things that they had for sale there, i felt bad for the people that were semi-forced to buy all the stuff there

[Swagger]

ok.. wanted to stay away but here I go....

the reason that the itouch does not come with the charger is to keep the price down, this happens in 2 ways, less to package, smaller package, less money, another thing is to save the cost of the charger its self, you save 30 bucks cuz there is no charger.

if you really need a charger, there is NO NEED to get a charger that is apple, there are 3rd party makers that make chargers that will work, [or is that no up the the swagger that you have to get 3rd party stuff?]

as for the car, phuck that dude, keep ur ****, selling your stuff s not going to fix anything [im not implying that there is something wrong, but if you are selling your stuff, heh, just keep it]

it is not going to make you less agogant if you sell the stuff you have, this will make you more arrogant.

i remember that there was a time on here that you had ALL the things that you own on your signature and we asked you to take it off cuz it was annoying, you cried and left for a while, this is arrogant, and dont give that bull S reason that showing what you have is not showing off and that it is not your fault that you have money and what not.

heh............

i dono man , i think that you need to re think that swagger if you are going to let teh charger get you like that.

agggggg
what ever

Posting the same BS in every thread I enter is pure jealousy on your part. You also only half read or can't understand what I write then go into a long meaningless rebuttal.

Your posts are a testimony to the fact that you cannot process intelligent infomation. What does any of this foolishness you posted have to do with the issue being discussed??? Nothing!!!

If you want to continue to insult me because of your lack of understanding what I'm talking about. At least try to be creative and come up with fresh insults. The same old check my swag, I'm arrogant and so forth is really getting old. SmartAlx took you to school today. Spend time trying to understad his comments are why I posted this thread and not because of the ignorant BS you keep trying to make it out to be. Mark:angry:

BTW: I see many other members with their electronics posted as a default signature. This is an electronics forum that is what people do to show their love of gadgets. I guess even though this practice is wide spread throughout the Internet. You don't understand that either. Only jealous people call that showing off. Everyone else understands it's a geek thing.

[jjvaldez]

sure dude whatever, you're an ass, that is all that there is to it, that is what I think and noting is going to change that, Im not jealous, hahahaha, why would I be, I have plenty of ****, most of it I do not need, this is stupid. Im not going to continue to go on about this with a old ass foo that goes on the internet and sweats ****, hahaha

this is stupid and it is just dumb that you keep on going on,

go enjoy your swagger dude,

loser

[jjvaldez]

why do you care what i think of you anyway, i dont care what you think of me, if you wanna go on, id like to, you can get my AIM form my profile...

[up10ad]

jj, peas brother, take a lude. ;) This thread will die when folks stop visiting. I'm gonna remove it from my subscriptions. I've read and understand the positions of the posters, and it is getting repetitious.

[dwp1975]

Guys (and Gals), take a breather and step away from the monitor, it's getting way too tense in here, cut it out before Hayes comes back with the huggy, feel good posting he threatened us with....lol :laugh2:

[Swagger]

sure dude whatever, you're an ass, that is all that there is to it, that is what I think and noting is going to change that, Im not jealous, hahahaha, why would I be, I have plenty of ****, most of it I do not need, this is stupid. Im not going to continue to go on about this with a old ass foo that goes on the internet and sweats ****, hahaha

this is stupid and it is just dumb that you keep on going on,

go enjoy your swagger dude,

loser

You are the one that keeps returning with insults. You have nothing intelligent to offer so out of desperation you bash me in every thread I post in . That makes you the loser not I. Like I said stop GIVING your money away then you wouldn't have to defend Wal-Mart you could shop else where. I agree with you on one thing. I don't give a damn what you think about me!!! Mark

[acosmichippo]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-314

As an example:
fit (useable) for the ordinary purposes (playing music) for which goods of that description (music players) are used.

To be sold as a music player it must be fit to play music.

Apple sells the device as a music playing device so the user should be allowed to use the touch as a music only device. Nowhere does Apple say that you have to own a computer to use the touch. The owner doesn't need a computer to put music on their iPhone. He can go to the starbucks down the street and buy all of the music he wants from their wifi but without a wall charger the device won't run for long. Therefore without the wall charger the touch is not fit for the ordinary purpose for which it was designed. It can't play music without a wall charger... or a computer. Since they didn't say that you have to have a computer, then they must provide another means to charge it. Without the means to charge it, it is not legally a device capable of playing music. But they are selling it as such.

I can just as easily use apps in this example too. Or games. Ever see the "funnest iPod ever" commercials? Some people might not like music so they could have bought the touch as a wifi internet/game playing device. For Apple to market it as a game playing device, it must work as a game playing device. It must be chargable right out of the package, unless somewhere on the packaging do they say that you have to purchase a wall charger yourself or provide charging via a computer. I don't think they do that. Not really Apple's style to advertise limitations.

It could be argued that the usage you describe here is far from "ordinary". Since the inception of iPods, people have either downloaded music to their computer, or ripped music from CDs to their computer to enjoy on their ipods. Furthermore, i believe one needs an iTunes account to download any music from the iPod's iTunes application, which i believe can only be done in the computer-based iTunes application.

So, in the end, i think there is still the implication that one DOES need a computer to use the iPod touch in its intented purpose.

[acosmichippo]

BTW, this is taken from the "Technical Specifications" of the iPod touch.

http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/specs.html

http://img.skitch.com/20081212-e1b86aej2g5c8jrheimn9jx1a3.png

[Swagger]

It could be argued that the usage you describe here is far from "ordinary". Since the inception of iPods, people have either downloaded music to their computer, or ripped music from CDs to their computer to enjoy on their ipods. Furthermore, i believe one needs an iTunes account to download any music from the iPod's iTunes application, which i believe can only be done in the computer-based iTunes application.

So, in the end, i think there is still the implication that one DOES need a computer to use the iPod touch in its intented purpose.

Your statement only applies to a regular iPod and not an iPod Touch. You never have to put one song on the Touch to use the other features. Web browsing on wifi quickly drains the battery. If I have to run to my computer to recharge then I might as well just use my computers browser and bypass the Touch all together. Mark

[dwp1975]

BTW, this is taken from the "Technical Specifications" of the iPod touch.

http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/specs.html

http://img.skitch.com/20081212-e1b86aej2g5c8jrheimn9jx1a3.png

Good point, it also states about methods of charging below. Not sure if that makes it any less/more legal.

http://the16thletter.com/images/Untitled-2.jpg

[Swagger]

Good point, it also states about methods of charging below. Not sure if that makes it any less/more legal.

http://the16thletter.com/images/Untitled-2.jpg

Maybe this information should be on the packaging instead of tucked away on their website. Mark

[diverdown]

Your statement only applies to a regular iPod and not an iPod Touch. You never have to put one song on the Touch to use the other features. Web browsing on wifi quickly drains the battery. If I have to run to my computer to recharge then I might as well just use my computers browser and bypass the Touch all together. Mark

I have read this entire thread and thought what the hell, I'll add my 0.02 and speak about my experience. I have the 1st generaltion iphone (which came with the aforementioned wall charger) and I must admit I almost never use the wall charger as I am always somewhere around some type of PC, as you can charge the device from any PC (regardless if it has itunes or not). I find this to be the utmost in convenience as carrying around a cord is much better than a charging brick, no matter how small.

I can certainly see the OP's point, however, I belive that that Apple made a business decision. To the OP's point he felt that the item should be included and brought the issue up the ladder and someone with authority granted his request and gave him the charger gratis.

To me this is how business is done. Companies will offer a product and if the consumer wants or thinks that other accessoroes be added, he/she can speak with a manager and request it. The request is either granted or it is not. Sometimes this leads to products being modified, sometimes not.

We live in a free market economy and companies are free to create and market their products to customers as they see fit. We as consumers have the ability to either accept it or not. Its a very simple concept and should not require this much debate or spark so much of a heated debate.

Just my 0.02, your ,ilage and circustances may vary.

Good Day to all,
Stephen

[dwp1975]

Maybe this information should be on the packaging instead of tucked away on their website. Mark

But then they can't dupe you into that $30 charger. Retailers thrive off of impulse shoppers...lol. :laugh2:

[Swagger]

But then they can't dupe you into that $30 charger. Retailers thrive off of impulse shoppers...lol. :laugh2:

Very true.

[Swagger]

But then they can't dupe you into that $30 charger. Retailers thrive off of impulse shoppers...lol. :laugh2:

Very true. Apple sets the price retailers can sale their goods for with little profit going to the retailer. The retalier makes their profit off the accessories. The more Apple can take out of the box. The more the retailer profits from accessories. Also making Apple products more lucrative for the retailer to sale even though the actual item being sold brings in little profit for the retailer. Mark

Mark my word. The headphones are the next to go...

[acosmichippo]

Your statement only applies to a regular iPod and not an iPod Touch. You never have to put one song on the Touch to use the other features. Web browsing on wifi quickly drains the battery. If I have to run to my computer to recharge then I might as well just use my computers browser and bypass the Touch all together. Mark

An iPod touch is still branded as an "iPod", is it not?

No doubt the touch CAN be used as only a web browser, but my point is that this is in no way "ordinary" usage of a device branded as an "iPod".

[Swagger]

I have read this entire thread and thought what the hell, I'll add my 0.02 and speak about my experience. I have the 1st generaltion iphone (which came with the aforementioned wall charger) and I must admit I almost never use the wall charger as I am always somewhere around some type of PC, as you can charge the device from any PC (regardless if it has itunes or not). I find this to be the utmost in convenience as carrying around a cord is much better than a charging brick, no matter how small.

I can certainly see the OP's point, however, I belive that that Apple made a business decision. To the OP's point he felt that the item should be included and brought the issue up the ladder and someone with authority granted his request and gave him the charger gratis.

To me this is how business is done. Companies will offer a product and if the consumer wants or thinks that other accessoroes be added, he/she can speak with a manager and request it. The request is either granted or it is not. Sometimes this leads to products being modified, sometimes not.

We live in a free market economy and companies are free to create and market their products to customers as they see fit. We as consumers have the ability to either accept it or not. Its a very simple concept and should not require this much debate or spark so much of a heated debate.

Just my 0.02, your ,ilage and circustances may vary.

Good Day to all,
Stephen

You would rather lug around a laptop to charge your device than the small wall charger that you describe as a "brick"??? Mark

[acosmichippo]

Very true. Apple sets the price retailers can sale their goods for with little profit going to the retailer. The retalier makes their profit off the accessories. The more Apple can take out of the box. The more the retailer profits from accessories. Also making Apple products more lucrative for the retailer to sale even though the actual item being sold brings in little profit for the retailer. Mark

Mark my word. The headphones are the next to go...

It's about time. Those things are doing more harm than good.

[acosmichippo]

You would rather lug around a laptop to charge your device than the small wall charger that you describe as a "brick"??? Mark

No, he said he would rather use the devices that are already at the locations he goes to.

[diverdown]

You would rather lug around a laptop to charge your device than the small wall charger that you describe as a "brick"??? Mark


No way...I travel light....but I have a cord at work and can charge from my work PC (no itunes) and at home the kids PC is upstairs so I just jack into that......

Iphones as well as Blackberries can charge from ANY PC, it does not have to be the one you sync with.....I find this Extremely usefull

[Swagger]

An iPod touch is still branded as an "iPod", is it not?

No doubt the touch CAN be used as only a web browser, but my point is that this is in no way "ordinary" usage of a device branded as an "iPod".

Ok we will never agree on this issue but the discussion has certainly been amazing. All the twist and turns it has taken. I really respect you for something you said yersterday about taking none of this personal. I'm glad you feel that way. I look at it the same way. You have made good arguements for your cause and so have I. We don't agree but it is all right everyone is different that is what makes us who we are. Happy Holidays to You and Yours My Friend...Mark:laugh2:

To those that hate me. If all you have to do is hate a person for their views. Maybe it is you with the problem and not I. Your hatred of me will still never change me. Hatred destroys you not me...

[iNinja]

p.s - your signature says "I am often misunderstood because I am unique.. Mark"

Do you not think that maybe if your misunderstood that often, it might actually be you with the problem!? lol ;)

[miggs1310]

Apple sells the device as a music playing device so the user should be allowed to use the touch as a music only device. Nowhere does Apple say that you have to own a computer to use the touch.



BTW, this is taken from the "Technical Specifications" of the iPod touch.

http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/specs.html

http://img.skitch.com/20081212-e1b86aej2g5c8jrheimn9jx1a3.png


Interesting....

What were those "facts" again???

[miggs1310]

p.s - your signature says "I am often misunderstood because I am unique.. Mark"

Do you not think that maybe if your misunderstood that often, it might actually be you with the problem!? lol ;)


go look at his post history, he will never understand that......ever

[acosmichippo]

**shakes head**




Anyway, for anyone wondering "why bother with all this?"... Funny thing about ingaging in a debate in opposition of a point of view you disagree with, is that is usually reaffirms your original stance. That is the point. It's not about trying to convince any one
Person in particular... It's about exploring why exactly you feel the way you do, and attempting to present it in a logical manner.

[Swagger]

p.s - your signature says "I am often misunderstood because I am unique.. Mark"

Do you not think that maybe if your misunderstood that often, it might actually be you with the problem!? lol ;)

No I think everyone else has the problem (just kidding and laughing). LOL, Mark

BTW: the things one has have nothing to do with corporate greed. It is how you obtain those things that bothers me about some people/corporations. You can still make tons of money offering goods or services at a fair price. No need in bleeding a customer dry it only causes you to lose that customer in the long run. I have not made one dime due to shady business practices. I don't believe in that.

[diverdown]

No I think everyone else has the problem (just kidding and laughing). LOL, Mark

BTW: the things one has have nothing to do with corporate greed. It is how you obtain those things that bothers me about some people/corporations. You can still make tons of money offering goods or services at a fair price. No need in bleeding a customer dry it only causes you to lose that customer in the long run. I have not made one dime due to shady business practices. I don't believe in that.

I really can not agree if you are trying to say Apple is conducting shady business practices by not including an external power adapter....to me that is a very large stretch....

~S

[Swagger]

Interesting....

What were those "facts" again???

In defense of SmartAlx. He was still right it's not posted on the box in plain view for the purchaser to see. Most consumers do not navigate through an extensive website before purchasing and you know that!!! Mark

[connie]

I might pay a (small) Pay-per-View fee to see you all at a debate podium arguing this live. Takes me back to election days a few weeks ago. And of course, Steve needs to be there too.

[chris]

Just a friendly reminder that personal attacks are not acceptable. Argue the point, not the person.

Thanks for your understanding.

-Chris

[diverdown]

In defense of SmartAlx. He was still right it's not posted on the box in plain view for the purchaser to see. Most consumers do not navigate through an extensive website before purchasing and you know that!!! Mark


I would tend to disagree here....Internet shopping has become very popular and with the depth of electronic products on the market, most buyers tend to do extensive research (regarding specifications, reading reviews etc) via the internet prior to making a purchase. At least I do.....

~S

[Swagger]

I might pay a (small) Pay-per-View fee to see you all at a debate podium arguing this live. Takes me back to election days a few weeks ago. And of course, Steve needs to be their too.

And to think. You get all of this wonderful debate, bashing and so on for free just for being a member of EIC. Isn't life great??? Mark

[miggs1310]

I would tend to disagree here....Internet shopping has become very popular and with the depth of electronic products on the market, most buyers tend to do extensive research (regarding specifications, reading reviews etc) via the internet prior to making a purchase. At least I do.....

~S

As do I, and all of my family members and friends.

Checking system requirments seems like commen sense to me...

[acosmichippo]

I might pay a (small) Pay-per-View fee to see you all at a debate podium arguing this live. Takes me back to election days a few weeks ago. And of course, Steve needs to be their too.

Arguing in brightly colored spandex with folding chairs?

Now we're getting somewhere...

[Swagger]

I would tend to disagree here....Internet shopping has become very popular and with the depth of electronic products on the market, most buyers tend to do extensive research (regarding specifications, reading reviews etc) via the internet prior to making a purchase. At least I do.....

~S

If what you are saying is true forums like this would not exist. Everyday many people come here asking simple questions (which is great) about their Apple product/s. The later would not be true if people were doing extensive reasearch on their products. How many times did people post one of my iPhone speakers is not working and had to be told. There is only one speaker. Mark

[acosmichippo]

Probably about the same number of people that neglect to read system requirements listed on a product's box.

[connie]

Sitting back watching debate while eating popcorn I say:
ewwww-good point Mark....
continue on.

[Swagger]

Probably about the same number of people that neglect to read system requirements listed on a product's box.

You cannot read what is not there (meaning on the outside of the packaging). Mark

[diverdown]

If what you are saying is true forums like this would not exist. Everyday many people come here asking simple questions (which is great) about their Apple product/s. The later would not be true if people were doing extensive reasearch on their products. How many times did people post one of my iPhone speakers is not working and had to be told. There is only one speaker. Mark



Not true at all. Internet forums are a great way of researching a product and obtaining information. I use them all the time when making purchases.

[Ramesh]

You cannot read what is not there (meaning on the outside of the packaging). Mark

Mark - do you still have the packaging? I'd love to know what the packaging says is included. I figure you'll be honest, knowing what little I know about you.

[Swagger]

Mark - do you still have the packaging? I'd love to know what the packaging says is included. I figure you'll be honest, knowing what little I know about you.

It's probably in my daughters room. I am not going to go rambling to find it. However I will take a look at it when she returns from school and report back. I can say I remember not seeing any requirements on the plastic case while in the Apple store. Especially charger sold separately or not included. Mark

[Ramesh]

It's probably in my daughters room. I am not going to go rambling to find it. However I will take a look at it when she returns from school and report back. I can say I remember not seeing any requirements on the plastic case while in the Apple store. Especially charger sold seperately or not included. Mark

That's cool. I do appreciate you looking at the packaging though. I'd be really surprised if it's not stated SOMEWHERE on the package what's in or not included.

[acosmichippo]

I'll also try to track one down at work later tonight.

[Swagger]

That's cool. I do appreciate you looking at the packaging though. I'd be really surprised if it's not stated SOMEWHERE on the package what's in or not included.

I will say this. The package was so thin. You knew unless downsized there was no charger. The size of the package is what alerted me to this whole issue anyway. I am almost sure there are no such makings on the package. When I asked the salesman he had to go and ask another employee. So I can almost 100% say there is no mention of a charger on the package... M

[miggs1310]

I don't know, looks like a lot of fine print there...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3279/2890530303_9637552ff5.jpg?v=0

[dwp1975]

I don't know, looks like a lot of fine print there...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3279/2890530303_9637552ff5.jpg?v=0

Wow, the package is so small it looks like a old school cassette case...lol

[Swagger]

I just looked at the packaging. No word of what is inside or out. I guess Apple figured out that you could figure it out yourself. May I say again the headphones are next to go. Watch and see. When that happens don't come here b**ching. Just know that you should have stood up in the first place when Apple started taking items out of the box...Mark

[diverdown]

I just looked at the packaging. No word of what is inside or out. I guess Apple figured out that you could figure it out yourself. May I say again the headphones are next to go. Watch and see. When that happens don't come here b**ching. Just know that you should have stood up in the first place when Apple started taking items out of the box...Mark


You could always pen a letter to Apple telling them how you feel about the lack of a wall charger. Address it to the corporate office, atten CEO. Worked for me in the past with Macy's.

[dwp1975]

Looking at the picture of the box makes me want to go buy a Touch.....must resist urge. LOL.

**Back on topic**

I think a charger should be included, my additional reasoning is what if you have one to use for when you go on vacation, unless you're a work-a-holic you tend to not pack a laptop with you, then when? Are you supposed to not pack your Touch with you? Otherwise you are forced to buy one. I've seen lots of people fight over outlets in the airport to charge their ipods and phones (but then again there are ipod vending machines in some airports, that probably have chargers for sale....lol), So in short you are forced into a $30 purchase to be able to fully enjoy your $400 gadget.

[acosmichippo]

I'm really not saying what I'm about to say just to be argumentative, as I have mentioned this in the past...

But I would be glad if apple did not include any accessories with iPods... And that includes the headphones. They are terrible headphones (not to mention detrimental tonyour health), and I would much rather save the 5 cents they add to the cost or the iPod, OR have apple put that overhead toward more features included in the actual iPod.

[Swagger]

Looking at the picture of the box makes me want to go buy a Touch.....must resist urge. LOL.

**Back on topic**

I think a charger should be included, my additional reasoning is what if you have one to use for when you go on vacation, unless you're a work-a-holic you tend to not pack a laptop with you, then when? Are you supposed to not pack your Touch with you? Otherwise you are forced to buy one. I've seen lots of people fight over outlets in the airport to charge their ipods and phones (but then again there are ipod vending machines in some airports, that probably have chargers for sale....lol), So in short you are forced into a $30 purchase to be able to fully enjoy your $400 gadget.

The iPod Touch is basically a mini computer. I wonder would these same people that disagree with me by a laptop without a charger??? Would they just be happy with a USB cord that they could charge their laptop from their desktop. If you have to use your laptop or desktop constantly in the iPod Touch experience. What is the use in even having the Touch. Your computer will execute every task the Touch will and much more. Also when you are away from home there are far more wall outlets than people that will allow you to hook into their computer via USB... Mark

[dwp1975]

I'm really not saying what I'm about to say just to be argumentative, as I have mentioned this in the past...

But I would be glad if apple did not include any accessories with iPods... And that includes the headphones. They are terrible headphones (not to mention detrimental tonyour health), and I would much rather save the 5 cents they add to the cost or the iPod, OR have apple put that overhead toward more features included in the actual iPod.

Good to know, my iphone headphones are still sealed and untocuhed in it's box, I never use them or the docking attachment it comes with (v1). Only accessory I use is the charger :tounge: and the cleaning cloth which has gotten cheaper from v1 to 3g as did the charger. Apple is taking out the wrong items in my case.....lol

[acosmichippo]

The iPod Touch is basically a mini computer. I wonder would these same people that disagree with me by a laptop without a charger??? Would they just be happy with a USB cord that they could charge their laptop from their desktop. If you have to use your laptop or desktop constantly in the iPod Touch experience. What is the use in even having the Touch. Your computer will execute every task the Touch will and much more. Also when you are away from home there are far more wall outlets than people that will allow you to hook into their computer via USB... Mark

You know, I wouldn't buy a laptop that couldn't copy&paste either...

[Swagger]

I'm really not saying what I'm about to say just to be argumentative, as I have mentioned this in the past...

But I would be glad if apple did not include any accessories with iPods... And that includes the headphones. They are terrible headphones (not to mention detrimental tonyour health), and I would much rather save the 5 cents they add to the cost or the iPod, OR have apple put that overhead toward more features included in the actual iPod.

Why would you not say it. You are entitled to how you feel. The Bose Tri Port headphones certainly do the job. I see they even have Tri Ports out now that include a microphone so you can talk and listen. I think I'm going to grab some this weekend. I love my regular Tri Ports but no mic is a hassle. I get tired of taking off my headphones and disconnecting them just to talk. Bluetooth stereo on the iPhone sure would be nice. Why Apple left that out other than battery drain. I will never be able to figure out. But that is a whole different argument.

[Swagger]

You know, I wouldn't buy a laptop that couldn't copy&paste either...

Now that is funny. Mark

[connie]

Totally agree about the earbuds, I don't even use Apple's, they hurt my ears. They do offer replacement for free once a year at the Apple store. I have never done it but have seen people doing it all the time when I am at the genius bar, they come in and swap them out. The last time I was there I asked a genius about it and he said you were aloud to swap your earbuds once a year, but I have been given wrong info there before so I'm not sure how true it is. It doesn't matter anyways because they suck and I could care less if they include them. I usually give them to my kids.

[fury]

Just a side note about the premise that you can use the Touch without ever connecting it to a computer...you do actually have to plug it in for iTunes to activate it. But then, yeah, you can use it without ever connecting it to a computer again...

Would be nice if they came out of the box with the ability to choose whether to sync to a computer or not.

[Swagger]

Just a side note about the premise that you can use the Touch without ever connecting it to a computer...you do actually have to plug it in for iTunes to activate it. But then, yeah, you can use it without ever connecting it to a computer again...

Would be nice if they came out of the box with the ability to choose whether to sync to a computer or not.

Who made that statement??? If you are referring to me. I did not say that. I said you never have to download one song...Mark

[jptolife]

Well, don't you have to connect it to a computer anyways, to transfer songs and things? I can see that this is a big deal for you but how hard can it be to charge it with a computer for a couple of hours.

[The Apple]

How should the iPod Touch be packaged?
With a wall charger?
Without a wallcharger?
With a voucher for a free charger shipped free?

Mark,
Make this a poll and lets see where everyone really stands. There is alot of "debating" going on here. I kind of want to see what the most popular view is.

[Picazzo]

Apple is not the only company who continue to downsize included accessories. This happens across the board. While I understand your decision not to give them $400, I wouldn't stop purchasing Apple products because of it. If you did that, you'll find the list of companies growing.

You're right Chris! Just take a look on printers - there is no USB cable in the box! I wouldn't stop buying these products because of "the missing cable, adapter etc..", and I don't mind saving the rainforest on these manuals! I read these on my computer, or print (when I get the cable..) the important pages out....:wink:

But at least - not last, I respect other peoples need for these extra "things" in the box!