new features on google maps!

[doron]

yo it can pinpoint where you are...yo that's krazy yo! wow!

[Napoleon_PhoneApart]

Wowie, zowie! :laugh2:

[Platinum]

Yeah, if you push the button to pinpoint your location and then do it agian once you're initially pinpointed it will zoom in even further on your location.... It goes right to my house when I do it a second time.

[Bravo]

Yeah, if you push the button to pinpoint your location and then do it agian once you're initially pinpointed it will zoom in even further on your location.... It goes right to my house when I do it a second time.

it does? just tried it and no go, I am in LA so pretty sure I got the signal strength.

[kimo]

Turn on your wifi on your iphone to help narrow the location.

[Bravo]

its on, but not getting solid wifi now, zoomed in and hit find button again, and said it couldnt, so looks like wifi is the key to getting extra close.

Thanks!

[minivini]

Ok, THAT'S pretty tight. When you switch on wifi, it DOES make a huge difference! I was about a quarter mile off prior to trying it on wifi. now it appears to be within feet.

[kimo]

its on, but not getting solid wifi now, zoomed in and hit find button again, and said it couldnt, so looks like wifi is the key to getting extra close.

Thanks!


If you can find your location on the map (knowing where you live) you can add a push pin to that point and rename it with you address. This can be used as a start location when you need directions. I tried it and the google maps used my push pin as the start location. So if you are traveling, you could put a push pin of where you are staying and then get directions to events, restaurants, etc. Add in the web site mobile.earthcomber.com (change to location you are at) and you should be able to find a lot of stuff.

[ZodiacfreaK]

Seriously though, how many times do you need to know where you are when you are within distance of a WiFi network. And also how many times are you going to be lost in the desert and not be able to use this because there are no cell towers. Seems completely useless to me, but I am sure someone will come up with a use.

[askewed]

Seriously though, how many times do you need to know where you are when you are within distance of a WiFi network. And also how many times are you going to be lost in the desert and not be able to use this because there are no cell towers. Seems completely useless to me, but I am sure someone will come up with a use.

It's to make getting driving directions easier...

[ZodiacfreaK]

It's to make getting driving directions easier...
How? Triangulation isn't accurate enough to know what street you are on. And its not even close. With WiFi it could, but then that isn't practical for driving. Please elaborate on how it could accomplish that.

[spyrwebs]

Ok, THAT'S pretty tight. When you switch on wifi, it DOES make a huge difference! I was about a quarter mile off prior to trying it on wifi. now it appears to be within feet.

Turning on wifi does make a big difference. Pretty accurate with wifi on.

[JoeT]

Folks, I hate to break this to you but there is no way to get a better position fix via WiFi.

Technically impossible.

[Devori]

Sounds like bad planning if you bring your iphone into a situation that would cause you to be lost in the desert!!:tounge:

[Bravo]

just moved to LA and can tell you this is a GREAT THING!!!

You make a wrong turn, get dropped off somewhere, meet people then bounce somewhere else, park and want to mark where you are.

VERY HAPPY with this!

Not as good as my TOM TOM but still very cool

[Devori]

Folks, I hate to break this to you but there is no way to get a better position fix via WiFi.

Technically impossible.

actually, it is stated in the keynote that triangulation uses towers AND wifi:laugh2:

[JoeT]

actually, it is stated in the keynote that triangulation uses towers AND wifi:laugh2:


Aaaaaand it's still impossible. There is no way to correlate the location of a WiFi Access Point to a physical location. You *might* check the public IP address and determine the city and state from that, but certainly nothing close to what you can via cell triangulation. Only the ISP knows where the subscriber (and therefore the AP) is located, and I'm sure that Apple hasn't made any type of arrangement to get at THAT data.

OK, just thought of one more way: The iPhone gets the MAC (not Mac) address of the AP and references a known list of hotspots - but that isn't going to help with your home AP, unless a whole lot of people are geomapping the entire WiFi world constantly and uploading MAC addresses with reasonable lat/longs all day long.

So if you've got a technical argument you can make for WiFI access improving Google Maps' location feature, I'm all ears, but knowing the technology and industry behind it as I do, I don't see a way that it's possible.

[Hondamaker]

Joe makes perfect sense, so I'm with him on this, plus it marks me as 2 miles from my home, in town, with all kinds of wi-fi and towers around.

[Jhors2]

They could be either using a whois lookup and crosschecking that with the google maps database to achieve a potential address. Or maybe a database that has been accumulated in cities where people have checked WAPs and cataloged them online. There are a number of things, but regardless WiFi enabling does make it MUCH more accurate.

[Devori]

Aaaaaand it's still impossible. There is no way to correlate the location of a WiFi Access Point to a physical location. You *might* check the public IP address and determine the city and state from that, but certainly nothing close to what you can via cell triangulation. Only the ISP knows where the subscriber (and therefore the AP) is located, and I'm sure that Apple hasn't made any type of arrangement to get at THAT data.

OK, just thought of one more way: The iPhone gets the MAC (not Mac) address of the AP and references a known list of hotspots - but that isn't going to help with your home AP, unless a whole lot of people are geomapping the entire WiFi world constantly and uploading MAC addresses with reasonable lat/longs all day long.

So if you've got a technical argument you can make for WiFI access improving Google Maps' location feature, I'm all ears, but knowing the technology and industry behind it as I do, I don't see a way that it's possible.

there is no doubt you know what your talking about.. all i know is what i heard on the keynote.. i could care less HOW it works.. as long as it does!

[Jhors2]

There is a huge project to geomap hotspots. Much like how google is trying to allow the street view that you can physically walk the streets when they go through city by city intersection by intersection with a device that takes a 360° view of wherever they are and uploads it to googlemaps. I'm making this argument moreso because it works, but id also be particularly interested in how it does so.

[JoeT]

They could be either using a whois lookup and crosschecking that with the google maps database to achieve a potential address. Or maybe a database that has been accumulated in cities where people have checked WAPs and cataloged them online. There are a number of things, but regardless WiFi enabling does make it MUCH more accurate.


WHOIS is useless. If you looked up whois for my ISP (rr.com), you'd think I was in Herndon, VA:

Road Runner HoldCo, LLC
13241 Woodland Park Rd
Herndon, VA 20171

Domain Name: RR.COM


If you do an NSLOOKUP on the public IP, you'd get 32-226.200-68.tampabay.res.rr.com. Better -- assuming that GM can decipher that into Tampa, FL; but obviously that's not anywhere close.


And again, if someone is cataloging APs with lat/long data (and there are a few projects), that's pretty unreliable since it's all unfiltered, unverified data put in by strangers, essentially. That would also have people driving into every neighborhood, and that certainly isn't happening yet.

I'll try sniffing the WiFi to see if it's indeed doing anything interesting.

[askewed]

How? Triangulation isn't accurate enough to know what street you are on. And its not even close. With WiFi it could, but then that isn't practical for driving. Please elaborate on how it could accomplish that.

You're being difficult.

[askewed]

Folks, I hate to break this to you but there is no way to get a better position fix via WiFi.

Technically impossible.

You're just wrong.

[JoeT]

You're just wrong.


Oh? Prove it.

[coal0101]

Oh? Prove it.

Please do your research first... http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/

As someone that knows the field so well I would expect you to do your own research before saying something can not be done. I have also worked with Wifi city networks...one of the first companies to roll it out actually. It seemed pretty obvious and easy to understand when presented during the keynote.

[coal0101]

Originally Posted by JoeT http://www.everythingicafe.com/forum/everythingiphone/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.everythingicafe.com/forum/iphone/new-features-on-google-maps-20937-post174231.html#post174231)
Folks, I hate to break this to you but there is no way to get a better position fix via WiFi.

Technically impossible.




Folks, I hate to break this to you but there is a way to get a better position fix via WiFi.
...I guess someone had the technical ability.

[pazaway371]

Turn on your wifi on your iphone to help narrow the location.

it does the opposite for me...when I'm using edge, the locayion is pretty much accurate. but when I'm using wifi, it gives me a location that is 2 miles away... weird...

[coal0101]

it does the opposite for me...when I'm using edge, the locayion is pretty much accurate. but when I'm using wifi, it gives me a location that is 2 miles away... weird...

You must be further away from hotspots that have been mapped.

[askewed]

Please do your research first... http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/

As someone that knows the field so well I would expect you to do your own research before saying something can not be done. I have also worked with Wifi city networks...one of the first companies to roll it out actually. It seemed pretty obvious and easy to understand when presented during the keynote.

Paging JoeT, your plate of crow is ready for pickup at the customer service counter. JoeT to the white courtesy phone please.

[deac]

mine was pretty far off also (> .5 miles at office and > .8 mi at home an also the blue circle was huge. Then I saw this thread and turned on wifi and yes it did narrow in nicely.

So why isn't that part of the isntruction -- to turn on wifi for it to work since most leave wifi off to conserve battery juice. I can definitely see it being helpful as you don't have to stop and figure out where you are as a start location to get where you know you want to go -- very nice.

[kimo]

mine was pretty far off also (> .5 miles at office and > .8 mi at home an also the blue circle was huge. Then I saw this thread and turned on wifi and yes it did narrow in nicely.

So why isn't that part of the isntruction -- to turn on wifi for it to work since most leave wifi off to conserve battery juice. I can definitely see it being helpful as you don't have to stop and figure out where you are as a start location to get where you know you want to go -- very nice.


It will be just one of things that we (iphone users) discover and pass it on. I do turn off my wifi when not being used, so after you are done locating on the map again turn off the wifi.

[minivini]

For whatever reason, turning on wifi put me spot on. With EDGE only, it showed me about two miles off. With wifi, best I can tell, its right on top of me. Certainly dialed in enough for walking directions. Cool stuff!

[pmcguire123]

hi mine is also spot on but maps still seem to be 5-10 years out of date acording to the cars parked out side my house regards pete

[Griffinaz]

hi mine is also spot on but maps still seem to be 5-10 years out of date acording to the cars parked out side my house regards pete

Hey!, that's Bob's car. What was he doing at my house visiting my wife while I was at work.

[Lincoln]

The location feature works wonder for me. The blue circle lands directly over my house.

- John

[JoeT]

Paging JoeT, your plate of crow is ready for pickup at the customer service counter. JoeT to the white courtesy phone please.



Sorry, no crow for me. I never said it was impossible with WiFi AND a database; in fact I expressly said that that would BE possible. While I didn't know about Skyhook, I'm still not terribly impressed for the following reasons:

1. They likely have grabbed their data from Wigle and other sources that have been known to be seeded with bad data from people and businesses wishing to obscure their locations. I doubt they are roaming the entire country mapping this themselves. Further, I've seen data that is somewhat less than properly obtained (read: Moron didn't get his gpsd running in time and the location is borked to the last known location of the gps) make it's way in there. Further, enterprise shops often have their equipment repaired at a central depot where it is then sent to the next location needing a replacement unit - so that skews the database as well.

2. APs get upgraded far too often, especially in the commercial world, for that data to stay fresh for any appreciable amount of time, and that means that even if they DID go scour the entire country for WiFi positions, they would need to do it constantly if only to determine that things HAVEN'T changed. But again, I think they are relying on people who are uploading their wardrive takes to Wigle and the like, so you have no guarantee of data refresh at all if that's the case.

3. Even Wigle doesn't cover *everywhere*, and given the low range of WiFi (and the less than admirable receiver sensitivity of the iPhone), I think you're mostly going to see a benefit in cities versus suburbs, and probably little to no help in (semi-)rural areas.


That being said, I don't know how Google Maps evaluates this data. For example, if the cell tower is Tampa and the AP is listed as being in Miami, does Google discard the WiFi data? Does it split the difference and call it Fort Meyers? What if the cell signal is very low - does it weigh the WiFi data higher than the cell data? Now, realistically, it may be more like the cell tower and AP are coming back as 5 or 10 miles apart than a few hundred, but the same principle applies.


This part of the "How it Works" from their site concerns me:


In an example usage scenario a mobile device user runs a location application, e.g., map navigation, in order to find directions to a business meeting. The mapping application initiates the WPS client engine which executes a subsecond wireless scan of the area. As always, all Wi-Fi access points in the area from private APs in homes to public hotspots broadcast their signal beacons announcing their presence. WPS receives all of those beacons which include the unique signature and precise location of each access point. Typically, WPS will receive more than five signals from any given scan. The results of this scan are compared against the local cache of reference data or the central reference database via the network connection.
The location engine then filters out signals from access points that are unknown or may have moved location recently. The resulting high confidence list of reference points is then fed into Skyhook's patented suite of positioning algorithms which determines the user's current location to within 20 meters.





WiFi beacon frames (which they allude to above) do NOT carry ANY location information at ALL, let alone a "precise" location. And since that is true, how they can filter out APs that "may have moved location recently" is beyond me.

And that 20 meter accuracy, as many of you can already attest to, is a fallacy. Maybe that's the best case scenario in Manhattan or LA or Boston, but it's sure not going to be the case anywhere outside a city of such density.


So, to sum, the WiFi is not providing the location -- which was my point -- a database is. And that database is likely to be suspect for the reasons I mentioned.


Edit: Oh, and by the way, those of you who think the CIA is out to get you and the NSA is listening in to the radio waves coming out of your head from the transmitter that Homeland Security placed there will be happy to know that your determined location is being fed back to Skyhook every time you use the location feature - and who knows what data is going back with it? MAC address, IP address, phone number?

Me, personally, I don't care - but some people are more concerned about such things.


Re-Edit: Looks like I was right about the coverage: http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/coverage.php

Most of the State of Florida, for example, has no coverage. And funny how you can't zoom it in too much, eh?

Re-Re-Edit: Damn, I hate being right all the time. Look at Skyhook's coverage (http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/coverage.php) compared to Wigle's (http://www.wigle.net/images/rigled-images/national.png):

http://www.notablephoto.com/images/skyhook-wigle.jpg

[doron]

yeah mine was a block or two off, but close enough...i guess it depends on the area maybe

[KPSK]

With wifi on mine was about 2 miles off from the outer circle

[coal0101]

JoeT (http://www.everythingicafe.com/forum/members/joet.html)...you really hate being wrong. No one said it was not also using a database. Of course it is going to use a database...I thought that was obvious. It reports the beacons it is receiving with signal strengths and does a lookup in the database. Based on the signal strength it determines an approx location. You can complain all you want but it is working for people. Also it is obvious that it will work better in populated cities. I don't expect the wifi portion to work out in the sticks...does anyone?

[minivini]

Wow, Joe, you really are spending a LOT of time arguing about an application that is both in its infancy and is really only meant as a helpful tool. I highly doubt people are using this for serious navigation. It's great for locating Starbucks on a road trip, but I hardly think EMS crews are relying on it to locate accident victims. You really end up coming off like a tool with remarks like "...I hate being right all the time." I mean Jeez dude, why take this stuff so seriously - it's only a phone. Neither your reputation nor your ego are at stake here, are they?

:rolleyes:

[JoeT]

Wow, Joe, you really are spending a LOT of time arguing about an application that is both in its infancy and is really only meant as a helpful tool. I highly doubt people are using this for serious navigation. It's great for locating Starbucks on a road trip, but I hardly think EMS crews are relying on it to locate accident victims.


When did I ever say it was? I agree with you, it's a useful tool. I said so myself in this post. Perhaps a re-read of what I *did* say might be in order.

To sum for you, I said that it was impossible to use WiFi (as a technology) to determine location. I then revised my statement to add that WiFi along with a database *could* be used to improve positioning but that it was unlikely that any company would undergo such a massive effort. I then said that Skyhook likely grabbed data from Wigle or a similar project in which wardrivers uploaded their data which they generated for personal reasons, and not as a paid function. I then compared the coverage maps from Skyhook and Wigle and found them to be pretty much the exact same thing, leading one to wonder if they did simply steal that database (which would open them to a lawsuit, which, if successful, could result in Skyhook being denied the use of the data, which would eliminate this function in our Google Maps). Along with that, I added that some of the data fed into Wigle is intentionally or unintentionally erroneous, which could lead to some of the less-than-stellar accuracy that some of the people here have been discussing - if, in fact, that's the data being used.



You really end up coming off like a tool with remarks like "...I hate being right all the time." I mean Jeez dude, why take this stuff so seriously - it's only a phone. Neither you reputation nor your ego are at stake here, are they?

:rolleyes:



Hmm...


Please do your research first... http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/

As someone that knows the field so well I would expect you to do your own research before saying something can not be done.



Paging JoeT, your plate of crow is ready for pickup at the customer service counter. JoeT to the white courtesy phone please.

You're just wrong.


Yeah, pretty much it was. And the "I hate being right all the time" was a reference from Jurassic Park; used in the context of a supposition later proving itself true.

[GailLA]

JoeT (http://www.everythingicafe.com/forum/members/joet.html)...you really hate being wrong. No one said it was not also using a database. Of course it is going to use a database...I thought that was obvious. It reports the beacons it is receiving with signal strengths and does a lookup in the database. Based on the signal strength it determines an approx location. You can complain all you want but it is working for people. Also it is obvious that it will work better in populated cities. I don't expect the wifi portion to work out in the sticks...does anyone?

Well said.

I live in the sticks and I get within about .5 miles. WiFi on or off makes no diff out here. Still I'm happy. It does locate me within .5 miles. If you are totally lost and don't have your Garmin with you, at least you are in the ball park (as in "I broke down outside of Podunk, NV and the road sign says, or this is what I can see"), but no, I'm not getting rid of my Nuvi any time soon.

[psylichon]

I was testing it in my driveway today (where I still get some wifi signal from my basement, as well as others from my neighbors). With the iPhone's wifi off, it put me about 4 blocks away. With wifi on, it was smack dab on the money. Again, I'm metropolitan Philadelphia, so that helps considerably no doubt.

Pretty neat! Does Verizon's location service use this wifi database as well? At least on the phones that have wifi ;)

I also noticed it doesn't work too well on the move in a car. Hit it while stopped at a traffic light (shouldn't be messing with that stuff while driving anyway) to recenter yourself.

[doron]

When did I ever say it was? I agree with you, it's a useful tool. I said so myself in this post. Perhaps a re-read of what I *did* say might be in order.

To sum for you, I said that it was impossible to use WiFi (as a technology) to determine location. I then revised my statement to add that WiFi along with a database *could* be used to improve positioning but that it was unlikely that any company would undergo such a massive effort. I then said that Skyhook likely grabbed data from Wigle or a similar project in which wardrivers uploaded their data which they generated for personal reasons, and not as a paid function. I then compared the coverage maps from Skyhook and Wigle and found them to be pretty much the exact same thing, leading one to wonder if they did simply steal that database (which would open them to a lawsuit, which, if successful, could result in Skyhook being denied the use of the data, which would eliminate this function in our Google Maps). Along with that, I added that some of the data fed into Wigle is intentionally or unintentionally erroneous, which could lead to some of the less-than-stellar accuracy that some of the people here have been discussing - if, in fact, that's the data being used.






Hmm...










Yeah, pretty much it was. And the "I hate being right all the time" was a reference from Jurassic Park; used in the context of a supposition later proving itself true.

hey how did you manage to do multiple quotes like...been wantin' to do that for some time now

...but anyway, for the most part you know that its quite nice for the feature of pinpointing where you are is descent...

[kdarling]

Pretty neat! Does Verizon's location service use this wifi database as well? At least on the phones that have wifi ;)

Verizon uses the A-GPS chip in their phones. That's why they can give constant turn by turn directions.

[steviep831]

Seriously though, how many times do you need to know where you are when you are within distance of a WiFi network. And also how many times are you going to be lost in the desert and not be able to use this because there are no cell towers. Seems completely useless to me, but I am sure someone will come up with a use.
I totally disagree. If you are out of town and unfamiliar with your surroundings... this would make the difference between finding your way or ending up on the wrong side of town. I'm heading to Miami in a couple of weeks and know it rather well, but I'm going to a wedding at a church I've never been to... then have to go to a reception at a hotel I've never been to... I plan on using this feature often!

[IphoneTony]

I can see it now... On the new season of 24.. Jack is lost and he emails ctu his location and they send a helicoptor in to get him...

[coasts]

Seriously though, how many times do you need to know where you are when you are within distance of a WiFi network. And also how many times are you going to be lost in the desert and not be able to use this because there are no cell towers. Seems completely useless to me, but I am sure someone will come up with a use.

wait until you start traveling for business and find yourself waking up in hotels all across america unsure of where to find breakfast.

[gary88]

I get the same exact results with wifi and EDGE.

Crap, I just want true GPS!