Screw Apple!!! They Are Ruining A Wonderful Device For Profit!!

[ehaser]

Hi ya'll ...

I gotta say..as a 31 yr old tech junkie/ banker...I just don't get apple's reasoning to kill 3rd party apps.. In the last month, I've enjoyed so many apps. which were made by hard working developers.. most of which were for free!!! I would just like to say "THANK YOU" to all of the people who have dedicated their time to helping make these awesome applications.
Thank you
thank you
Thank You!

It's a shame that apple is giving all of this "free" product development (which, by the way, is helping advance their product!) the *********

I've always loved apple and have switched my whole house network to mac's however that is about to change. As a consumer, we cannot sit back and allow this to happen. Therefore I suggest anyone considering an apple product in the next few months to put that urge on hold...

We need to hit them right where they hit us...THE POCKETBOOK.


Selfish !


So unlike all the people who want to update...I'm going to keep my old firmware and enjoy these apps for a while longer..

[gijohn]

I favor my choice of computers, devices, etc. Going to selfishly stay right where I am with Apple. Thanks for the interesting post.

(plus I bought 100 shares at just over $20 per ..... which is now 400 shares after the 2 splits.)

:laugh2:

[col3man]

Screw Apple!!! They Are Ruining A Wonderful Device For Profit!!


Huh? like they developed it for??? What? for the benefit of humanity? the goodness of their hearts? to help us communicate?

[Lincoln]

I gotta say.. as a person...
I'm tired of all this whining!

[Lincoln]

Only need to post it once, dude. Spam.

[geordisjd]

Apple is so pure, so wonderful... that you wouldn't think anybody working for them is in there for the money. Only evil entities like Microsoft and Bill would ever think of becoming rich on the basis of technology that appeals to the common folk. Shame on them. I'll never buy another Apple product again unless they promise not to make ANY money on it.

[iHuman]

do yourself a favor, sell your iphone, and take the money to start investing in apple stock. Then you can make money with them. ;-)

[luvmyiphone25]

and so it any other company. if i were steve jobs i would do everything to make as much money for my company as possible. and i would say he is doing a pretty good job at it.

[propynyl]

I've always loved apple and have switched my whole house network to mac's however that is about to change. As a consumer, we cannot sit back and allow this to happen. Therefore I suggest anyone considering an apple product in the next few months to put that urge on hold... \

I'm a lifelong, diehard mac fan (I love my iphone). But for the first time, I just bought a Windows laptop. I bought an IBM thinkpad running Vista. Partly because I am sick of Apple being so ****'ish lately, and also because I feel like their hardware has really gone downhill in quality, power, and overall esthetics.

I am extremely happy with my Vista laptop. I'm sure I'll buy another mac sometime in the future, but for now I just feel like I needed to cool off a bit from Apple.

[iHuman]

you should post this in every section of EIP because its so useful... Oh wait... My mistake, you already did

[ahduke99]

do yourself a favor, sell your iphone, and take the money to start investing in apple stock. Then you can make money with them. ;-)

amen .. i did both! i've made a nice share of money with them.

[ehaser]

:angry: You're so cool! Thanks!


you should post this in every section of EIP because its so useful... Oh wait... My mistake, you already did

[T3Logic]

I think the argument here is if people so choose they should be able to do what ever they want with the phone. It voids the warranty, ok but don't completely lock it out.

It's like if you buy a new car. Lets say a mustang with a v6. I know right up front what features the car has. But if I want to add a turbo to the engine let me add it. If I want to add new suspension I can. Of course the whole time I am adding these additional features I am voiding the warranty.

Some people keep there mustangs stock, some mod them.

The iphone is the same thing , a personal possession designed to do certain functions. People just want freedom to do what they want to there own property.

[dimensiondvdrob]

I think the argument here is if people so choose they should be able to do what ever they want with the phone. It voids the warranty, ok but don't completely lock it out.

It's like if you buy a new car. Lets say a mustang with a v6. I know right up front what features the car has. But if I want to add a turbo to the engine let me add it. If I want to add new suspension I can. Of course the whole time I am adding these additional features I am voiding the warranty.

Some people keep there mustangs stock, some mod them.

The iphone is the same thing , a personal possession designed to do certain functions. People just want freedom to do what they want to there own property.

Yes, but what you and everyone else is missing is the fact that the ONLY part of the iPhone you own is the hardware part. The software and ALL of it is owned by Apple and you're ALLOWED to use it with their blessing as long as you use it as they intend for it to be used. You don't own the software. You signed the END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT which will state this. Go develop your own version of the software without infringing on their patents and voila! you can mod it to your hearts content! You may even get cut and paste! :wink:

[kency79]

I'm a lifelong, diehard mac fan (I love my iphone). But for the first time, I just bought a Windows laptop. I bought an IBM thinkpad running Vista. Partly because I am sick of Apple being so ****'ish lately, and also because I feel like their hardware has really gone downhill in quality, power, and overall esthetics.

I am extremely happy with my Vista laptop. I'm sure I'll buy another mac sometime in the future, but for now I just feel like I needed to cool off a bit from Apple.

This is a revolutionary response - finally someone happy with Windows Vista.

Apple products are still the best in the market.

[mlass]

You don't own the software

I don't own Windows Vista, but I can modify it and add 3rd Party Apps.

Just my 2 cents.

[T3Logic]

It has already been proven under the DMCA we can unlock the iphone for personal use. Therefore we if we so choose so we are allowed by law to modify the software for personal use and non monitory gain.

Since you stated that it is software based we are under the laws blessing to modify the software to allow additional carriers.

Let me go on the record by saying that apple has a legal fight coming its' way.
And with this the overall apple development of the iphone will diminish just like windows did a few years ago.

[rotobadger]

Macmanpro: Your avatar cracks me up everytime I see it!

[dimensiondvdrob]

I don't own Windows Vista, but I can modify it and add 3rd Party Apps.

Just my 2 cents.


That is only because MSFT allows this. If they didn't then you would be in the same position that we are with iPhone.

[webb]

It has already been proven under the DMCA we can unlock the iphone for personal use. Therefore we if we so choose so we are allowed by law to modify the software for personal use and non monitory gain.

Since you stated that it is software based we are under the laws blessing to modify the software to allow additional carriers.

Let me go on the record by saying that apple has a legal fight coming its' way.
And with this the overall apple development of the iphone will diminish just like windows did a few years ago.

Apple has NO legal fight coming its way. Why is everyone forgetting those agreements/terms we clicked "agree" to over and over? The magical laws you speak of are in no way going to impart divine intervention on your behalf so that you can do whatever you want to the damn thing.

FW

[iHuman]

:angry: You're so cool! Thanks!

guess i'm missing the point of getting onto an iphone forum and starting another post bashing apple for behaving like a business. 3rd party apps may expand the phone for us, but it does nothing for apple's profit. Remember, a large majority of iphone users havent hacked their phones. I did, and as I've stated in another post, I upgraded with the idea that it won't be too long before there is another apptap update.

Also, it seems like people are willing to jump ship on apple as a whole due to the unhappiness with the phone being expandable. This is their first shot with a phone, give it a chance. Even 90 days later, we're still early adopters, it will get much better, but one must have some patience

[hexonxonx]

I favor my choice of computers, devices, etc. Going to selfishly stay right where I am with Apple. Thanks for the interesting post.

(plus I bought 100 shares at just over $20 per ..... which is now 400 shares after the 2 splits.)

:laugh2:
Same here, enjoying every minute I get to use my iPhone, my MacBook Pro I bought because of my iPHone, my 160GB Classic and my old 30GB iPod Photo. All have proven to be excellent products.

[T3Logic]

"The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) [at 17 USC 1201] prohibits circumvention of these mechanisms, with only a few narrow statutory exemptions."

Dimension - this is not a magical law, it is actually fact.

The eula that you so hold on too was thrown out when the first unlocking of phones was introduced. There was an agreement on those phones as well, forgot the exact wording but it basically stated you are bound to this agreement etc. People unlocked them and used with other carriers and the companies tried to sue the people for doing so.

Microsoft vs Linux
If you don't know much about the Linux scene, there is a program that uses the Windows codecs and other files to allow you to run windows applications on linux natively. There are different flavors but the major one is called Wine. Microsoft in the early stages tried to stop this through the courts stating that infringed on copyright laws and it went against the user agreement. Guess what, Microsoft lost the case but won one battle. Basically the court stated you can not freely or distribute the microsoft files. You have to get them off of the disc.

Honestly i have never heard of a big company winning a "Freedom Of Choice" lawsuit.

[T3Logic]

Actually I like the iphone. Actually love it. I have the ipod, like that too. I am actually planning to buy a macbook pro.

Being a developer for over 16 years, i just want to develop apps for the iphone. It would be fun.

What gets me is the EULA that alot of people hang on too. That eula was written to protect the company that created the product. But I have never seen it stand in court when it was challenged in regards to a company being a dictatorship.

[tharmsen]

Yeah, I'm so mad at Apple for getting rid of 3rd party apps (even though I didn't install any because I knew Apple would nuke them with each new patch) that I'm going to get rid of all my Apple computers in my house and at work!

Brilliant!

LOL

Next.

[bschizz]

I think the argument here is if people so choose they should be able to do what ever they want with the phone. It voids the warranty, ok but don't completely lock it out.

It's like if you buy a new car. Lets say a mustang with a v6. I know right up front what features the car has. But if I want to add a turbo to the engine let me add it. If I want to add new suspension I can. Of course the whole time I am adding these additional features I am voiding the warranty.

Some people keep there mustangs stock, some mod them.

The iphone is the same thing , a personal possession designed to do certain functions. People just want freedom to do what they want to there own property.

A good analogy except that - to be accurate - if modifying an iPhone is like modifying a Mustang, then Ford would have to come to your house and remove your steering wheel and gaspedal, and put a locking boot on all four wheels to duplicate what Apple is doing.

There's a difference between Apple voiding the warranty, and Apple intentionally disabling modified iPhones, as they are clearly doing.

[bigviking]

I'm a lifelong, diehard mac fan (I love my iphone). But for the first time, I just bought a Windows laptop. I bought an IBM thinkpad running Vista. Partly because I am sick of Apple being so ****'ish lately, and also because I feel like their hardware has really gone downhill in quality, power, and overall esthetics.

I am extremely happy with my Vista laptop. I'm sure I'll buy another mac sometime in the future, but for now I just feel like I needed to cool off a bit from Apple.

Have you tried doing a full shutdown in Vista rather than the default standby ? If so, how do you like the way it takes an eternity to bootup even with all the extra services disabled. Vista has set Microsoft back by at least six years. Even Intel and AMD can't keep up with the increasing bloatware OS from Microsoft.

I am running the newest beta of Leopard, 9a559 and unlike going from XP to Vista, when going from Tiger to Leopard although it has many more features you don't feel the bloat by having everything slowed down.

The only way Microsoft can really move forward is to Dump Vista and start over.

There is no way I would put up with Vista just because Apple locked out third party apps on the iPhone. Even the people I know that say they love Vista can't tell me a single thing that the like better about it than XP when really pressed. And the only ones that don't think its slow are people that traded out their old computer for a 4x faster one with Vista to make it seem about the same.

If you want to feel the difference, dust off some XP disks and put them on that new laptop, then your fast new machine will actually feel like one.

[propynyl]

Have you tried doing a full shutdown in Vista rather than the default standby ? If so, how do you like the way it takes an eternity to bootup even with all the extra services disabled. Vista has set Microsoft back by at least six years. Even Intel and AMD can't keep up with the increasing bloatware OS from Microsoft.

I am running the newest beta of Leopard, 9a559 and unlike going from XP to Vista, when going from Tiger to Leopard although it has many more features you don't feel the bloat by having everything slowed down.

The only way Microsoft can really move forward is to Dump Vista and start over.

There is no way I would put up with Vista just because Apple locked out third party apps on the iPhone. Even the people I know that say they love Vista can't tell me a single thing that the like better about it than XP when really pressed. And the only ones that don't think its slow are people that traded out their old computer for a 4x faster one with Vista to make it seem about the same.

If you want to feel the difference, dust off some XP disks and put them on that new laptop, then your fast new machine will actually feel like one.

woah, easy there. I like Macs more, but I do in fact like Vista. I currently have a Mac running 10.4, an XP machine, and a Vista machine. I like the Vista machine a lot. It boots up fast, I have very few problems with it.

And I didnt dump apple SOLELY because of the iPhone not running 3rd party apps, I didnt even INSTALL 3rd party apps. I went with Vista because Apple's laptops are not my cup of tea...I can't STAND that one button mouse!

To each his own. I have the right to LIKE vista as much as you have the right to HATE it.

[propynyl]

Yeah, I'm so mad at Apple for getting rid of 3rd party apps (even though I didn't install any because I knew Apple would nuke them with each new patch) that I'm going to get rid of all my Apple computers in my house and at work!

Brilliant!

LOL

Next.

You're an idiot.

[BamBam]

I went with Vista because Apple's laptops are not my cup of tea...I can't STAND that one button mouse!

You don't like Apple laptops because of the mouse? Did you consider getting a two button mouse and plugging it in?

[hexonxonx]

You don't like Apple laptops because of the mouse? Did you consider getting a two button mouse and plugging it in?

I use my good old Microsoft mouse with my MacBook Pro. I guess some people think that you can't use any mouse you want with the Mac.

[DRabbit]

You don't like Apple laptops because of the mouse? Did you consider getting a two button mouse and plugging it in?

Actually, it's kind of funny... when I got my first MacBook I didn't think I'd like the one-button mouse/keypad either, but since it is a MULTI-TOUCH keypad, you don't need two buttons.... I don't even use the ONE button that's there! The MacBook keypad is far superior to anything on any Windows Laptop I've used... Tap to click. Slide with two fingers to scroll a page. Tap with two fingers for right-click menu. When I have to use someone elses Windows Laptop it drives me NUTS because it's so inferior.

As for an actual Mouse, you CAN plug in any USB one your like you know. :)

[propynyl]

You don't like Apple laptops because of the mouse? Did you consider getting a two button mouse and plugging it in?

Honestly dude, the title of this thread is not "why propynyl does not like Apple's laptops." I gave one example. I've been a mac-only user since the Apple IIC, but I felt like a change, and it was a good one for now. I'm not going to go into why I don't like their laptops, I just don't.

I love my iPhone on the otherhand! That is revolutionary product, even with all of Apple's ****-ish ways.

[OJsakila]

Hi ya'll ...

I gotta say..as a 31 yr old tech junkie/ banker...I just don't get apple's reasoning to kill 3rd party apps.. In the last month, I've enjoyed so many apps. which were made by hard working developers.. most of which were for free!!! I would just like to say "THANK YOU" to all of the people who have dedicated their time to helping make these awesome applications.
Thank you
thank you
Thank You!

It's a shame that apple is giving all of this "free" product development (which, by the way, is helping advance their product!) the *********

I've always loved apple and have switched my whole house network to mac's however that is about to change. As a consumer, we cannot sit back and allow this to happen. Therefore I suggest anyone considering an apple product in the next few months to put that urge on hold...

We need to hit them right where they hit us...THE POCKETBOOK.


Selfish !


So unlike all the people who want to update...I'm going to keep my old firmware and enjoy these apps for a while longer..


Screw ehaser!!! He is Ruining A Wonderful Forum For Attention!!:smile:




no offense meant other than the post thing...

[SmartAlx]

Apple has NO legal fight coming its way. Why is everyone forgetting those agreements/terms we clicked "agree" to over and over? The magical laws you speak of are in no way going to impart divine intervention on your behalf so that you can do whatever you want to the damn thing.

FWIm sorry but I must have missed it. Could you please read to me where in the EULA it says that if I mod my phone that Apple will brick it?

[DRabbit]

Im sorry but I must have missed it. Could you please read to me where in the EULA it says that if I mod my phone that Apple will brick it?

"The software (including Boot ROM code and other embedded software), documentation and any fonts that came with your iPhone, whether in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the "iPhone Software") are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License, and Apple reserves all rights not expressly granted to you. The rights granted herein are limited to Apple's intellectual property rights in the iPhone Software and do not include any other patents or intellectual property rights. You own the media on which the iPhone Software is recorded but Apple and/or Apple's licensor(s) retain ownership of the iPhone Software itself.

"YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE iPHONE SOFTWARE AND iPHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND THAT THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO SATISFACTORY QUALITY, PERFORMANCE, ACCURACY AND EFFORT IS WITH YOU. INSTALLATION OF THIS SOFTWARE MAY AFFECT THE USABILITY OF THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE."

[Tinman]

"The software (including Boot ROM code and other embedded software), documentation and any fonts that came with your iPhone, whether in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the "iPhone Software") are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License, and Apple reserves all rights not expressly granted to you. The rights granted herein are limited to Apple's intellectual property rights in the iPhone Software and do not include any other patents or intellectual property rights. You own the media on which the iPhone Software is recorded but Apple and/or Apple's licensor(s) retain ownership of the iPhone Software itself.

"YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE iPHONE SOFTWARE AND iPHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND THAT THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO SATISFACTORY QUALITY, PERFORMANCE, ACCURACY AND EFFORT IS WITH YOU. INSTALLATION OF THIS SOFTWARE MAY AFFECT THE USABILITY OF THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE."

And how exactly did that answer the question, "Could you please read to me where in the EULA it says that if I mod my phone that Apple will brick it?"


--
Mike

[DRabbit]

And how exactly did that answer the question, "Could you please read to me where in the EULA it says that if I mod my phone that Apple will brick it?"

Geez Mike, are you just looking to argue?

What I posted is what everyone here who updated had to say "I AGREE TO"... see that part about 3rd party apps not working? See the part about "at your own risk"?

I don't have a copy of every license everything apple, but I think this covers the important stuff. But since you asked a quick google search provided the whole thing...

Here's some excerpts that might be interesting to you:

"(c) Except as and only to the extent permitted by applicable law, or by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components included with the iPhone Software, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, or create derivative works of the iPhone Software, iPhone Software Updates, or any part thereof."

"This License does not grant you any rights to use Apple proprietary interfaces and other intellectual property in the design, development, manufacture, licensing or distribution of third party devices and accessories for use with the iPhone. Some of those rights are available under a separate license from Apple. For more information, please email madeforipod@apple.com. "


"Termination This License is effective until terminated. Your rights under this License will terminate automatically without notithis License. Upon the termination of this License, you shall cease all use of the iPhone Software and iPhone Software Updates. "

Maybe the don't say they'll brick it, but they sure say they won't cover it, guarantee it, or support it. If you BRICK IT YOURSELF by putting on 3rd party software, your fault, not Apples.

[dimensiondvdrob]

If you BRICK IT YOURSELF by putting on 3rd party software, your fault, not Apples.

EXACTLY! :laugh2:

[SmartAlx]

If you BRICK IT YOURSELF by putting on 3rd party software, your fault, not Apples.EXACTLY! :laugh2:
Actually, to be more accurate...

If you BRICK IT YOURSELF by installing the 1.1.1 update that Apple warned might brick your phone, your fault, not Apple's.

Though I still disagree. First, did Apple intentionally put something in the update to brick unlocked phones? Second, the question about whether or not Apple could have relocked the phones rather than bricking them is still to be resolved, but I suspect they could have.

[Prelector]

"(c) Except as and only to the extent permitted by applicable law, or by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components included with the iPhone Software, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, or create derivative works of the iPhone Software, iPhone Software Updates, or any part thereof."

Umm... that doesn't say what you *think* it says...

The use of the term modify refers to the modification of the software itself. Meaning, you can't modify the actual source code/compiled code; it has nothing to do with "modifications" by adding additional programs to run on top of. This can be clearly seen when taken in context with the rest of that paragraph, all of which refers to software engineering in various forms. If it did truely refer to applications use, then even web based apps would be in violation.

In addition, you folks have a grossly incorrect understanding of EULA law, and consumer rights...

Contrary to what Apple, MS, and others have told you, EULAs are NOT wholely and completely binding on their face. Just as with any legal contract, if the wording is poor, or the thing you're agreeing to is wrong, legally, then the contract isn't enforceable. I'm not saying all EULAs are bad, or even that Apples is, but merely pointing out that it isn't necessarily good either.

Also, the enforcement of EULAs regarding software embedded in a hardware platform changes quite a bit over their enforcement in software that has to be installed. Basically, EULAs on their face protect the IP (Intellectual Property) of the software, not the physical software (distribued medium) itself. What this means, is that Apple isn't protecting the physical CD, they are protecting what's ON the CD, and specifically, their source code.

Where this gets murky is in embedded platforms (like the iPhone). What you purchased and paid for was a hardware device with an embedded software. So, while you might have broken the EULA in regards to part of the software platform, that doesn't necessarily give Apple the right to deactivate the entire device. Remember, Apple owns the IP of the software, and licenses you to use it. They can't arbitrarily remove that right, thereby rendering the hardware device inoperable, without allowing you some other option to protect you're consumer rights. They could allow you to install another OS, or offer to take the device back, but they can't just "break" it.

This all becomes further muddied by the references to "unlocking" and the relevant legal standing in the US, and also by our status as consumers, merely trying to use our devices to their fullest, without any financial motive or gain intended...

This EULA problem has been around for years now, and each one of them is decided on a case by case basis, since there's no clear and consistant black letter law yet to fall back on. In the case of the 1.1.1 update however, I believe the majority of relevant decisions come down on the side of the consumers. When this gets to court (and I can almost guarantee there will be a lawsuit filed over this one) I believe Apple is going to be in some trouble (unless they settle out of court that is).


I've said this before, and I'll continue to say it until people start to listen: Quit spouting off incorrect and uninformed "facts" about EULAs and legal standings, unless you KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. You folks throwing out "You agreed to the EULA, now shut up" are WRONG. Quit being sheep, following around the "almight contract" and think/research for yourselves what your rights are.

(and before the "show me references" comments start showing up, there are over a dozen relevant case decisions that come into play in my above comments/opinions. If you're interested in learning more, I'll suggest you begin with rulings from the 7th and 8th Circuit courts, the DMCA, UCC and International Copyright Treaty. If you're not interested in learning more, and are just too lazy to come up with your own material to dispute this...)

[OJsakila]

Umm... that doesn't say what you *think* it says...

The use of the term modify refers to the modification of the software itself. Meaning, you can't modify the actual source code/compiled code; it has nothing to do with "modifications" by adding additional programs to run on top of. This can be clearly seen when taken in context with the rest of that paragraph, all of which refers to software engineering in various forms. If it did truely refer to applications use, then even web based apps would be in violation.

In addition, you folks have a grossly incorrect understanding of EULA law, and consumer rights...

Contrary to what Apple, MS, and others have told you, EULAs are NOT wholely and completely binding on their face. Just as with any legal contract, if the wording is poor, or the thing you're agreeing to is wrong, legally, then the contract isn't enforceable. I'm not saying all EULAs are bad, or even that Apples is, but merely pointing out that it isn't necessarily good either.

Also, the enforcement of EULAs regarding software embedded in a hardware platform changes quite a bit over their enforcement in software that has to be installed. Basically, EULAs on their face protect the IP (Intellectual Property) of the software, not the physical software (distribued medium) itself. What this means, is that Apple isn't protecting the physical CD, they are protecting what's ON the CD, and specifically, their source code.

Where this gets murky is in embedded platforms (like the iPhone). What you purchased and paid for was a hardware device with an embedded software. So, while you might have broken the EULA in regards to part of the software platform, that doesn't necessarily give Apple the right to deactivate the entire device. Remember, Apple owns the IP of the software, and licenses you to use it. They can't arbitrarily remove that right, thereby rendering the hardware device inoperable, without allowing you some other option to protect you're consumer rights. They could allow you to install another OS, or offer to take the device back, but they can't just "break" it.

This all becomes further muddied by the references to "unlocking" and the relevant legal standing in the US, and also by our status as consumers, merely trying to use our devices to their fullest, without any financial motive or gain intended...

This EULA problem has been around for years now, and each one of them is decided on a case by case basis, since there's no clear and consistant black letter law yet to fall back on. In the case of the 1.1.1 update however, I believe the majority of relevant decisions come down on the side of the consumers. When this gets to court (and I can almost guarantee there will be a lawsuit filed over this one) I believe Apple is going to be in some trouble (unless they settle out of court that is).


I've said this before, and I'll continue to say it until people start to listen: Quit spouting off incorrect and uninformed "facts" about EULAs and legal standings, unless you KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. You folks throwing out "You agreed to the EULA, now shut up" are WRONG. Quit being sheep, following around the "almight contract" and think/research for yourselves what your rights are.

(and before the "show me references" comments start showing up, there are over a dozen relevant case decisions that come into play in my above comments/opinions. If you're interested in learning more, I'll suggest you begin with rulings from the 7th and 8th Circuit courts, the DMCA, UCC and International Copyright Treaty. If you're not interested in learning more, and are just too lazy to come up with your own material to dispute this...)

Man you are so right!!! The problem I have is the effort you exert in trying to prove "our" point to a bunch of 15 year olds..... I don't even give it the time of day....

[dimensiondvdrob]

Here is my take on what happened/happens with the update:

Apple provided a new update (1.1.1) which re-flashed the WHOLE iPhone with a new ROM. The (Apple) did not write the software to preserve your unsupported data or re-lock the phones that were unlocked. The software by itself written by Apple does this natively. There is no intent to disable phones, because Apple had stated previously to this update that they will not write their iPhone ROMs to be compatible with unsupported software or unlocking, thus the bricked (inoperable) phones. People that updated basically had software that created an unfavorable environment for the 1.1.1 update to install properly, thus making the phone unusable after the update.

[Prelector]

Man you are so right!!! The problem I have is the effort you exert in trying to prove "our" point to a bunch of 15 year olds..... I don't even give it the time of day....

Yea, I wonder about the returns on my time myself sometimes :P

I keep hoping that if I explain it enough, it will finally sink in... Can we say "tilting at windmills"?

Just call me Quixote :P

[OJsakila]

Yea, I wonder about the returns on my time myself sometimes :P

I keep hoping that if I explain it enough, it will finally sink in... Can we say "tilting at windmills"?

Just call me Quixote :P


Ha ha! No, you are right. I just don't have that drive. I'm slack. I commend you! I applause you! Im having a BBQ for you tomorrow night in savannah. Come on by! Thanks for all you and all the other guys do by expaining it the way it should be! Normally I'm just commenting and helping out but this is what this forum is all about! I love you!

J/k about the love part...

[Prelector]

Ha ha! No, you are right. I just don't have that drive. I'm slack. I commend you! I applause you! Im having a BBQ for you tomorrow night in savannah. Come on by! Thanks for all you and all the other guys do by expaining it the way it should be! Normally I'm just commenting and helping out but this is what this forum is all about! I love you!

J/k about the love part...

Damn! That BBQ sounds Goooooood :) Wish I wasn't busy in AZ right now, and could shoot on by :)

[BamBam]

...[snip]
. So, while you might have broken the EULA in regards to part of the software platform, that doesn't necessarily give Apple the right to deactivate the entire device. Remember, Apple owns the IP of the software, and licenses you to use it. They can't arbitrarily remove that right, thereby rendering the hardware device inoperable, without allowing you some other option to protect you're consumer rights. They could allow you to install another OS, or offer to take the device back, but they can't just "break" it.
[snip]..

Prelector, this was a fascinating post. I enjoyed reading it as it seems as though you are well studied (and qualified?) on the subject. I would appreciate your input on the following regarding the part I quoted above. Can Apple be held to have arbitrarily removed your right (license) to the embedded software, simply by applying a firmware update. One which would work with an 'unhacked' phone but which they cannot guarantee will work with a hacked one.
If challenged, would they need to provide evidence that the update was not influenced by the possible presence of unexpected code, objects or register contents? (i.e. prove they didn't deliberately break the hacked phones?)

I'm one the people not upset by the recent events. At the same time, I willingly admit I'm uneducated about the technicalities (software and legal) and therefore I do appreciate the voice of reason - even if raised a little. :wink:

Thank you.

[Swagger]

Apple has NO legal fight coming its way. Why is everyone forgetting those agreements/terms we clicked "agree" to over and over? The magical laws you speak of are in no way going to impart divine intervention on your behalf so that you can do whatever you want to the damn thing.

FW

You might need to check your facts. The law says that part of the EULA is not binding!!! M

[Swagger]

Here is my take on what happened/happens with the update:

Apple provided a new update (1.1.1) which re-flashed the WHOLE iPhone with a new ROM. The (Apple) did not write the software to preserve your unsupported data or re-lock the phones that were unlocked. The software by itself written by Apple does this natively. There is no intent to disable phones, because Apple had stated previously to this update that they will not write their iPhone ROMs to be compatible with unsupported software or unlocking, thus the bricked (inoperable) phones. People that updated basically had software that created an unfavorable environment for the 1.1.1 update to install properly, thus making the phone unusable after the update.

Do you really believe what you are saying, or are you reading a script that Apple provided you with, Hmmm ???? M

[mlass]

Vista has set Microsoft back by at least six years.

Vista is Great and so is the iPhone (now that my volune is fixed, LOL)

But, how many years did the iPhone set Apple back.

Doesn't support all current Technology.

Price Drop after 2 months (due to slow sales)

New model late 07 early 08 to have new Technology that 2 month old iPhone lacks.

No flash on iPhone, but on Mac PC's (why?)

I love the iPhone, but the only thing that sold me was the Web Browser. M$ Mobile 6 and HTC8525 is very similar and it also has Video Calling (models with front camera). The only thing that was bad with Mobile 6 was the Web Browser.

I want and expect the latest Technology. For this reason I will be in line for iPhone 2, unless HTC or someone else anounces something better.

[dimensiondvdrob]

Do you really believe what you are saying, or are you reading a script that Apple provided you with, Hmmm ???? M

Why would it be a script? I am not quoting anyone, I am merely making a statement, which I feel is non-biased. I am not protecting Apple, but I feel I am reasonably explaining how the update was processed onto the iPhone. In my mind it seems reasonable to say that the update, which was provided by Apple, which will not support anything other than pre-installed software/setup can have a faulty install when installing in an environment (i.e. hacked apps, unlocked phone) that Apple has decided to not support. Thus, people that updated with a non-stock phone had problems with the install which led to the phone being inoperable, until you go back to 1.0.2 and then update to 1.1.1 from 1.0.2 stock.

This seems reasonable to me. In my experience, all software has some sort of environment that is favorable to a good install and will give problems when installing on machines that have an environment that is unfavorable to the code written by the developer(s).

Just relax and keep your hacked iPhone if that is what makes you happy. I am happy with my stock iPhone. It does everything I need it to do for me.

[Prelector]

Prelector, this was a fascinating post. I enjoyed reading it as it seems as though you are well studied (and qualified?) on the subject. I would appreciate your input on the following regarding the part I quoted above. Can Apple be held to have arbitrarily removed your right (license) to the embedded software, simply by applying a firmware update. One which would work with an 'unhacked' phone but which they cannot guarantee will work with a hacked one.
If challenged, would they need to provide evidence that the update was not influenced by the possible presence of unexpected code, objects or register contents? (i.e. prove they didn't deliberately break the hacked phones?)

I'm one the people not upset by the recent events. At the same time, I willingly admit I'm uneducated about the technicalities (software and legal) and therefore I do appreciate the voice of reason - even if raised a little. :wink:

Thank you.

I'm glad you enjoyed the post, and hope it helped clear up things a bit at least. And no, I'm not "qualified" as in a lawyer. I just enjoy some aspects of legal arguement in general, and have studied it a bit. :)

Regarding your question: This is where the "murkiness" lies here... Intent.

Yes, Apple, *could* be found to be liable for damage to the device through a software update. However, this relies on INTENT on Apple's part. Also, the Plaintiff (us) would have to Prove Intent. In Civil court, each side has to argue it's position, and the one that argued the best (or proved the most effectively) wins. So, Apple will try and prove it was an accident, and we'll try and prove it was purposeful.

I mention some other, potential arguements/directions for any potential case in general in another thread, that I think would bypass this "murky" area, and argue on other, more stable, legal grounds.

PS - I use the word "we" to refer to iPhone users in general, and not referring to myself, or members of any particular case in specific. I'm not endorsing any lawsuit against Apple; I'm just discussing the legal arguements, and their relative merit in general.

[dimensiondvdrob]

Thanks Prelector!

You seem to be very versed in this legal stuff and you're definitely the voice of reason for me at least for this topic.

[Prelector]

Thanks Prelector!

You seem to be very versed in this legal stuff and you're definitely the voice of reason for me at least for this topic.

Thanx 'rob! And glad I could help another :)

Alot of it is just taking the time, and effort, to search, read, and understand what the law is today, and what previous cases are related. It's a pain to be sure :) But it gets easier the more time you spend on it.

I should also stress that these are all "theories" on my part (though I have tried to provide my reasoning where I can) regarding potential legal strategies. As I've mentioned, there is no true cases on point for this situation, so it could really go either way once it got to court.

While I don't necessarily endorce a Class Action Suit for money in this case, I would like to see a case brought. Mostly, so we can finally get some clarity on the law, and what consumers rights are vs manufacturers rights.

[jptolife]

OMG!! LOL!! I wonder why would they do it otherwise? they created the phone to sell it and make a profit!! are you kidding me?